Today’s Oracle takes us to the Aries monthly for June 22, 2010
Free will, and freedom in general, are among the greatest challenges that most people ever face. One common response is to panic at the notion of potential and the opportunity to choose. Another is to run away with power and see how much abuse one can foist on the world. But the most common response is to go to sleep and pretend that there is no freedom. As it works out, none of these are viable for you; rather, you’re finally in a position where you must take on both potential and the responsibility of freedom, as well as the power and the sense of danger that comes with it. These are all acting simultaneously on your chart, and therefore your psyche. You have the right to be nervous, but I would not call that a privilege, and I don’t suggest you indulge it any more than is necessary. Simmering down more aspects than I could write about in a good length article, we get one bold theme: you’re ready to step into an expanded vision of yourself. This means being fully present for your own life and showing up for your relationships in a new way. If there’s a sacrifice involved, it’s a kind of habitual insecurity that you ignite on the altar of progress. This comes in the form of one decision that is imminent now that affects both your most intimate private life and your most assertive professional life.
Note, The Oracle is a random selection from the Eric Francis horoscope archives. Each day we publish one entry from among the 10,000 in our database. It’s a little slice of horoscope history — but chosen by our Oracle program, which always speaks to the present moment. New horoscopes are published each Friday plus twice a month in Planet Waves subscriber edition and Planet Waves Light. And for your 2012 annual reading, you’ll find Revolution. Revelation. Reality Check.
ya, HugS, remember your own ‘satchita’ ~ 😉
http://youtu.be/XMkaBN3x5AM
HS, I hope you are not being hard on yourself, bcuz it sounds a little like that. I’d like to welcome you to the human race! Seriously, your openness and willingness to put it all out there is such a gift, never forget it, okay?
I’m not sure if people will still catch this comment, but I would like to say thank you again. It entirely truthful that I have been self absorbed lately, despite my conscious efforts to be caring. I have made mistakes to both myself and with others and am not exempt from causing pain, however unintentional. I have put myself into positions that perhaps should have been avoided. I also have done my best to communicate, but emotions can often ignore logic and can make the relationship landscape hard to navigate. I concede any participation in that unclear landscape. Hopefully, as I continue to honour those who share a part of themselves with me, I will learn to be a better partner and man.
Very sincerely,
HS
“you’re (finally) in a position where you must take on both potential and the responsibility of freedom, as well as the power and the sense of danger that comes with it.”
Aries LOVES the power and sense of danger that comes from responsible freedom; it makes us feel alive!
from Devo’s Freedom of Choice
In ancient Rome
there was a poem
about a dog
who found two bones
he picked at one
he licked the other
he went in circles
he dropped dead
freedom of choice
is what you’ve got
freedom from choice
is what you want
use your freedom of choice
freedom of choice!
ps Paola, yes, it’s normal! 🙂
Carrie: Again, thank you for sharing. I appreciate reading about your experiences and your thoughts on different matters. I am a committer. I can’t help it. Maybe that’s my Virgo way? Over-thinker, over-committer. 😉 I want to feel like the person I am deciding to be with is going to be there for me. Even when we’re done with sex. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that there is an emotional connection or bond before I have sex. I guess I just need to make sure it’s real on both ends. So many times I have thought the bond existed only to find out the next day–or hour–that it didn’t. That is not to say that I jump into bed with everyone I feel an emotional connection with. I actually have limited sexual experience–which I am fine with … And which may explain why I form a strong emotional bond quickly? Not enough practice with being the other way. 😉
“I do know that people will often do one thing and say another because they are unaware of their hidden games and issues. When that happens, no amount of evidence will make them see.” So true! And I am working so hard to go beyond this. I think so many people, myself included, fall into this trap. It becomes a game of he-said-she-said. No one wins that because everyone believes their own s#*t.
One of the things which really helped in my marriage was to let each of us set the tone and degree of relationship with our parents. I deal with mine and he deals with his and neither of us tries to influence the other when it comes to our families of origin. After all, who knows my dysfunctional family better than I? Same goes for Dave. That arrangement has worked for the most part. When the kids came along, each of us does have veto power but it is used very rarely and after much disussion and consideration.
HS~ you are welcome.
Dave now has a relationship with his parents but on his own terms and his mother accepts me to our faces (but the dislike is still there). I was wise enough not to make it a “it’s either her or me” contest like she did which is why he is so adamantly loyal to me when she tries any manipulation. I knew that to make it a contest would only harm him so I just encouraged him to set his own tone with the relationship and that I would go along with that and keep the peace for his sake. This made her machinations so clear that he couldn’t deny them and that meant he was better able to see her for what she is. It also allowed him to see my agenda; which was to do no harm to him.
I hope that the woman you relate to is able to let you deal with your mother and not make it a contest of wills with you in the middle. That only hurts the middle person and why would anyone want to hurt someone they say they love? :::smile:::
Carrie, yeah, that’s what it was. My mom is pretty with it and deeply loving, although has abandonment issues from her youth. I can’t even describe how difficult it was to extract myself. That’s why I put it off for so long. There were so many levels of entanglement, from shared property, tax messes, financial loss, emotional identity, sexual identity, deep purging and cleansing of years of self neglect, reconnection, reintegration, renewed self definition as I disrobed, and maintaining a barrier and boundary against any emotional hijack. Knowing my stuff from hers, knowing when I’m being sucked into shit that has nothing to do with me, refusing to play any role except what I discern appropriate and healthy for me, being asked to take on responsibilities that only induce her lack of ownership of her material. It was a hard line I had to draw in the sand. Now, the process is easier BECAUSE my own process has allowed her the freedom to carve out more life experiences and awakening of her own – and granted, she was brave enough to evolve herself and take those steps. The shadow still rises, but I can address it more steadily now that I have stronger roots in my own individuality and purpose. And I stop too when I want to give her “the answer”. I want her to make her own choice, because that is her life, not mine. That lesson alone is worth so much to me. It alleviates any pressure on me to control an outcome. I can share an opinion, but that’s it.
okay………..that felt good!
Thanks Carrie!
“effectively being more of a partner than a son.”
HS, there’s a term for when a parent does that to their child (adult or not); it is called “emotional incest.” I don’t know if that’s what your mother did; your post description sounds like it but only you know the whole picture.
My husband’s mother did that to him for years which was why she deeply resents me to this day and emotionally punishes my husband for leaving her to get married and live his own life. He had begun the separation before I met him but his love for me and our getting married made her very angry; she tried emotional blackmail on him. She didn’t come to our wedding (and convinced his weak father to stay away as well). He was so deeply hurt that the second night after our wedding, he cried like an abandoned child in my arms.
Her emotional incest of him left him with pain and some issues which he has been working on now for all these years.
I am SO glad you are forging your own life.
“i have experienced a well-meaning lover who is wonderfully focused on healing, but there were times when that focus felt more like an over-focus on what was wrong.”
I have experienced someone like that (not a lover) and it only made me realize that it was about HIS issues being projected onto me. I know I have issues but this guy saw something negative in things which I didn’t feel negative about. I had to just gently push back and say how it felt to me.
I am not afraid to face negative stuff; I also know where my negative stuff is better than anyone and every psychologist I ever worked with always told me the first rule of psychology is to let the client decide what is or is not wrong. No inserting things; the client knows what they need even if they are in denial. All the therapist can do is listen and ask questions that might direct the client gently toward healing.
I agree that the blood flow is probably part of the refractory issue; as I mentioned before I often get up in the morning and feel like I am peeing through a very narrow straw. That feeling goes away after a short while and I know that infants experience blood flow engorgement of their genitals at regular intervals; both male and female experience that.
It also stands to reason I am like this; I also test out as male in spatial reasoning tests and think and respond like males on logic tests despite being a very feminine Pisces sun. My libido has always been high and more like males and I seem to be able to have sex without the relationship (just for the sex only) like some males do. I FEEL the masculine energy in me just as I feel the feminine energy. My Pisces sun, Virgo Asc axis means I can flow from Virgo practical reasoning to Piscean emotional depth easily and freely.
Michele! exploding thread is right! I really enjoyed what you wrote. Thank you. And I had no idea of the amazing conversation that would take place here. I thank everyone for keeping it going!
I know I’m rather green…okay very green, but a part of me feels like this shouldn’t be complicated. It should be easy. If its not, let go and figure out some personal answers. Then try again later. Problems arise, yes, but with open discussion and loving detachment, I think creates space for resolution and clarity. True, I’ve never had a long relationship and that many will say I’m talking out of my ass. But from 20 I was working to help my mom with money, sharing a small living space, helping out mutual baggage issues from our pasts – effectively being more of a partner than a son. I can never compare this to an actual relationship where the dynamic of sex changes everything, but it WAS a relationship in that I learned to compromise, share, communicate, tolerate, sublimate, create, ignore, have patience, heal myself, and listen to my inner voice. And there were plenty of fucked up moments to endure. So I can relate to people. I know in a sexual relationship, the dynamic of this psychic bond is hugely different. But really, just the other side of the coin is a similar psychic relationship to the “womb” and to your mom, despite us being more like roommates. Being a monk helped me from going completely nuts, thank god. And thank god for my individuation and sexual healing, cause I would be dead by now – literally.
Carrie Michele it is that isn’t it. You step into encounters with all of you singing broken sighing mending, whatever. Like using the whole plant in medicine is wider ranging than filtering out one part. Of course you get to know what is useful for what and what absolutely isn’t!
I’ve so enjoyed reading all these posts.
Wow. Thread explosion.
I’ve been thinking about this all day. With the backdrop of: honesty-to-honesty. I organized my thoughts and experiences into 6 ascending categories. (Long-ish. I’ve mustered up all my courage.)
5. The here’s-the-door experience. I express oral appreciation. I get from him: EW, don’t kiss me. That’s disgusting…. Me: Oh. OK. Let’s talk about that. Him: Nothing to talk about. Me: Um… OK… Really? Let’s try to talk about it. Him: No. (This is just one example of an occasional lover over a ten-year period. I tried. Trust me. I tried.) Or here’s one: You’re too tight? Oh yeah? Hmmm… I won’t get into this blaming thing right now… Except to say I’ve also been told: You’re too loose. Take your pick. My pussy is open to criticism, for sure.
4. The marriages. Emotionally invested. Much at stake. More about me than the other. Total failure. I was that person that said, in the end: You don’t get to touch THIS. In the second attempt at this mysterious gig, ten years or more later: If you don’t want to fuck me except in your sleep in the middle of the night… I’m pretty sure someone else really wants to… Yes. Total fuckwadism on my part. No doubt. Of all the people who have passed through my life, those two are two-of-three that I am absolutely not in contact with. Note to self: No more marriages no matter what reasons seem like good reason. Absolutely NOT made for it.
3. Pass-through-me but don’t want to be passing through… This one is tough. When someone looks at you in the middle of passionate abandon, lifts his face from between your legs or whatever is happening and rears up and says: I could be anyone! — Wow. That’s happened to me several times. WTF? You aren’t *anyone*… You are you. And onwards from there. If I had a cock… Well. Insta-limp, right? But I don’t. So we talk through it. This category kind of goes along with: You’re a slut. Me: MMM… Right. Nice. Again more talking. Let me walk you through this pleasure and what we have in this moment.
2. Pass-through-me…. who are OK with it, as I am. This is my favourite. These were the other wounded lovers. Had no idea such was the case. Until that fateful moment. I’m not certain what it is… Keep in mind *that* fateful moment is not necessarily what you might think it is. But in each instance, I simply touched and whispered, and point-blank said: I get it. ( A bit more eloquent than that.) Anyway, these men have gone on, ostensibly, to lead happy lives. These are the men that occasionally write me to tell me they still remember that croissant sandwich I made them. Or the ones that have said I am like a French film.
1. Mutual healing. Scarce. But it happens. Hey, I have issues, as well. For example… I’ve had a really hard time dealing with the fact that my parents tossed me out. So I have mother issues and father issues. I’m lots of fun when that shit gets out, for sure. There are dark secrets back there. That no-one remembers. French Catholics. What do you expect? So there are a few dark power trips lying in wait inside me. I would put the stalkers in this category. It was a stalker that taught me not to use what I have indiscriminately and unconsciously.
0. Timeless. No words. Alright. I admit. This one is actually my favourite. Cannot be recreated. Will not be recreated. We cross paths. It is utterly the most extraordinary merging ever. On he goes with his life and on I go with mine. Super-life-affirming. It’s happened a few times and I can STILL smell them. That’s like category one, but unspoken, everlasting. All of these were one fleeting night.
6. The damage I have done. I hate this. Looking back… It’s a bit of a perfect-perfect storm scenario. The worst of him, the worst of me. It’s the lowest on my list because I fucking hate hurting people. It’s one of three things that can me sob. Being totally mis-treated is the another. So mutual mis-treatment… Very Bad Thing. (The third thing is not relevant to this topic much.)
Back to # 4… The third person with whom I I have a no-contact rule (besides the stalkers): He said: You don’t know what love is.
So… You know… We’re all seriously complicated. Layer upon layer upon layer.
I’m happy this came up, that you brought it up Hugging Scorpio. You helped me organize my thoughts around this, somewhat. It’s been huge on my find and you were the motivation to think some of it through, no matter how crudely at the moment.
Best to you. And to everyone else who chimed in.
xm
Amanda, was just heading off to sleep when I saw this. Thank you for you encouragement! Yes, all those pressures you describe, I’m feeling. But I know I’ll get there. I mean, I have improved soooo much since my loss of the “V” in Feb. So, all good. I hope this doesn’t sound selfish, but I had to start somewhere with someone. And we were friends enough that we chose to try, and that is something I’m still so grateful for.
and jumping back in the conversation a bit (sorry i showed up late!):
“I’m always taken aback by the speed at which sex energy recedes following orgasm, and seeing someone else still in that space when I’ve already left it can be a little jarring. It takes a lot of emotional and sexual maturity to be able to stay with it and be with that person until they reach their peak”
yes — it’s kind of amazing. and it seems also related to the physical refractory period, the shift in blood, the shift in hormone production, as much as emotional roots to me. i mean, i don’t think i ever feel guilt or shame after i come, but sometimes i feel like laughing or talking, or simply refreshed or drowsy.
ages ago i learned with a lover with whom i would often masturbate with over the phone that i had to ask him to wait for me to come before he did. it wasn’t that i had to “be first,” but rather it seemed like once the container of mutual arousal was broken, all the energy would go rushing out and feel diffuse. *especially* if he decided to get up and start having a snack while i was still working up toward orgasm. it was generally easier for him to hang out along his edge and then come with or just after me, and that seemed to keep the container intact better for both of us.
oh, and HS: sounds like you’ve gotten a range of responses on your particular experience that may be valid. too bad that she was coming from wherever she is.
speaking from my own personal experience: when you’re trying to re-learn your sexuality/arousal/orgasm process as an adult after having been cut off from it, it’s incredibly frustrating and painful to have someone derail your orgasm (or to derail it yourself mentally, or a little of both). and the cycle of feelings that come with it — fear of never “getting it”; fear of being “broken”; guilt about taking “too long” or making someone wait or “work hard”; shame; despair — can be so self-feeding and hard to shake off and break out of.
it seems to take a combination of patience and compassion for oneself and from a partner, a commitment to getting to the roots and healing, acceptance for where one is and enjoyment of what does feel good to move through each stage. really, the sense of patience and compassion seemed especially key.
i have experienced a well-meaning lover who is wonderfully focused on healing, but there were times when that focus felt more like an over-focus on what was wrong. and that seemed to leave me little room for self-compassion for where i was with it all. i’m not sure how much of my reaction was just my perception based on baggage versus how much of it was really coming from him. but it’s a tough balance to strike, i think. lots of steps forward and back.
vis-a-vis refractory periods:
my understanding of them has been that in men there is engorgement of blood in the erectile tissue that supports a *very* strong, propulsive ejaculation of semen, and that the physical mechanism of that also includes a fairly immediate receding of blood back out of the erectile tissue. and that the combination — the necessary force to ejaculate, coupled with the fairly quick outflow of blood — is on some level taxing on the body.
so i’m wondering: might the physical/emotional cause & effect put forth by erc work in the other direction — at least in part? is it necessarily that a physical refractory period be the result of emotional shadow? could it be that the physical process is actually at the root of the other emotional responses some feel after sex, since culturally men are not generally articulate/aware/well-integrated with feelings of weakness, being spent, etc?
granted, i’m not quite sure how to relate this to a female refractory like carrie’s — unless maybe there’s a really dramatic outflow of blood from erectile tissue in some women? (again, my understanding is that female erectile tissue does not generally engage a sudden outflow of blood after orgasm the way it does in men).
i would say i’ve experienced both: often after orgasm i feel a dip in libido, etc; but sometimes as soon as i come, i can feel another orgasm waiting for me right there, and can immediately keep masturbating and come again without any trouble.
Katie,
There were a few times when I was like that with someone. It even has happened to me with someone I never met but talked to via the internet only. I have gotten attached to people but for the most part, those one-night sexual forays were with no connection but attraction. I wanted to have sex and I went for that with out any other agenda in mind.
Once in the doing of it, though, I always fell into a connection kind of trance wherein I was giving myself through my hands and body even as I was working up to orgasm. It is like zoning into the person and offering up my self. I lived in my senses; my rational mind forgotten for the while. Only rarely did I feel a deeper connection and want more than the sex. Mostly they didn;t wnt more so I had to walk away.
I do know that people will often do one thing and say another because they are unaware of their hidden games and issues. When that happens, no amount of evidence will make them see.
Oh, Carrie. Thank you for sharing. I think my Virgo essence must be little off-kilter then. My body, mind, and emotions connect fiercely. At times too much so. I wish I could stand outside of myself and just myself have an experience–any kind!–without over-thinking.
I met a friend of a friend at a party a month ago. We instantly clicked. Attraction. Interest. Scintillating conversation. Everything was great. We ended up fooling around. I thought about him a lot after that. So I contacted him. He was receptive and wanted to meet up. (Duh, he already knew I was an easy mark! 😉 ) So we did. We had a great dinner, conversation, and ended up back at his place … and yadda, yadda, yadda. (Oh, yes, I just referenced Seinfeld–this is still the 90’s, right? The dream is alive?) It was intense and frenetic passion. Or so I thought. He knew that I thought we had this great connection. He knew that I took our jumping into bed quite seriously. That the connection for me was not just physical. It was emotional too. A connection that was quickly forged, but strong none the less. There were complications in both of our situations. We kept in touch. When I asked to see him recently, he declined. Stopped replying to my emails. Stopped replying to my calls. And then blew me off with a text. Oh, yes. A text. I ended up sending him an email. It was honest. And blunt. And maybe (slightly) mean. Which is completely out of character for me. I felt terrible after I sent it–but there was no going back. It was lost in the land of the internet. He sent me back a really nasty email, which, I probably deserved. But I was so hurt. I lashed out out him. I hate feeling stupid. And i felt so very, very stupid that I had allowed this to happen to me. I can’t separate my emotions from my physical body. I wish I could. It seems like it would make encounters of this nature easier. But then maybe I’m not cut out for that type of interaction. So I’ll work through this and continue to try to find someone that I can have both physical roots and an emotional dimension with. (Oops. Eric, I didn’t mean to appropriate that, but I do love it!)
“What I have found is that in my many different kinds of emotional and physical responses, there was all kinds of unprocessed material that I needed to work through so that I could be lighter of heart, healthier, less conflicted and closer to my body.” Eric, wise words! Thank you sharing your experience with your research and writing. Much appreciated! Maybe in order to create a more lasting connection I need to work through my stuff in order to allow my body and mind to co-exist rather than compete with each other. Stuff to ponder! Thanks to all who have shared for giving me the kick in the butt I needed to start thinking about all of this instead of wallowing in some sad and trite emotional purgatory. 🙂
i know my body shame comes from some core emotional experiences, first at birth, next as a child. socialization attempts to reinforce this daily (family/ancestral patterning, hypermedia, schooling, etc.). does a fucking number on the whole package (body/mind/spirit/*). the flux for me has been between the “no one will love me like i want because of my body” (internalized oppression-not fitting the “norm”) and the healing truth that as i love/accept/reframe my body (whole self), no one else really matters – it’s why i say it’s an inside/out (r)evolution. so for me, it’s definitely and perhaps foremost been a process of deveiling shadows, becoming aware of and choosing to break those cycles, liberating heart, body and soul one blessed slice of Divine at a time. ♥☮♫
Shadow is not pathology. Shadow is what is denied.
Unprocessed or unconscious shadow can become pathological, which merely means painful — pathos is pain, and that would also include the secondary effects of living with pain.
I think you would know what’s underneath your emotional experience once you actually get to the root — however, if the effect does not bother you, if you don’t consider it an expression of pathos, then there’s really no need to go there: there is, only if you decide you need or want to.
I would propose that every effect has a cause. The cause and the effect are basically aspects of the same thing.
What I have found is that in my many different kinds of emotional and physical responses, there was all kinds of unprocessed material that I needed to work through so that I could be lighter of heart, healthier, less conflicted and closer to my body.
I’ve gone into my family legacy — old stuff going back to Sicily, from different branches of my family; my mother’s pain; the relationship between she and her father; the relationship of my grandfather to his mother (there was a LOT in that relationship, which I inherited by being his next male descendant). There is a family legacy of incest that I am aware of from (at least) one to three generations above my own, in my direct lineage.
There was also legacy from other incarnations (one in particular). Most of what I was processing felt like this endless thread of guilt and shame, with no obvious cause in my personal biography — it’s inherited material, ancestral and collective. Working through this is part of what has driven my quest as a sex educator and erotic writer.
“Hence the emotional connection that I cannot disassociate from sex and why I have a hard time with one time sexual experiences. I make an emotional connection when I have a sexual bodily experience.”
I was different; I could have one time sexual experiences, give of myself in an emotional way (and feel like I was connecting to them as giver but not as love-bonding). It is the same way I can disassociate myself when having an argument with Dave; I can literally stand back inside my head and hold my own ego back enough to hear what he is saying and then parrot it back and try to understand his point of view. I can then re-activate my feelings and engage them when I describe my side of the argument. Someone once said that is the essence of Virgo in action. It is a mental sign despite being earthy and sensual.
This means I had a lot of one night stands but during the sex, I was giving and receiving; just not in a romantic way. I connected with a primal human part of both of us and just offered myself up to that. My touch was my gift; through it I also absorbed them and their humanity. My body was the vessel of surrender and my emotions the joy and compassion.
Eric, I completely agree with you and I love how you expressed that! Emotions and the body are one and the same for me. Hence the emotional connection that I cannot disassociate from sex and why I have a hard time with one time sexual experiences. I make an emotional connection when I have a sexual bodily experience.
“Carrie, have you considered the idea that the body and the emotions are one and the same, or so close as to be inseparable? That all emotions have physical roots and all body experiences have an emotional dimension?”
Yes, I have and I agree but I also don’t assume that every physiological response carries with it a pathology. Not everything is based on a negative (or shadow side) emotional energy. I don’t think my having a refractory period indicates an unresolved emotional issue. It is just how my body responds in orgasm. I am not upset about it; I mentioned it because it is not typically spoken of and that can make some women feel like they are somehow abnormal. I pass on that kind of info because it may be helpful to another woman who is experiencing the same.
Carrie, have you considered that idea the body and the emotions are one and the same, or so close as to be inseparable? That all emotions have physical roots and all body experiences have an emotional dimension?
Body shame, I’ve had this too. Although for some reason, after I disrobed, I became slowly more relaxed and comfortable with myself. I had the lingering influences of my dad’s misogynistic vibe on me. When I disrobed, that came flooding back because I was allowing my sexual nature more freedom for reintegration. I did my work as diligently as I could as a young man/monk, but working with it now is completely different and a more complete component of my maleness. I used to think women were grossed out by semen/ejaculation, that it smelled gross and that I shouldn’t show it. When I was in my teens with a girl, I’d get pretty wet (Cowper’s fluid) just kissing, still do. Now I know this is normal stuff, but back then I was paranoid about it. Now, I look forward to coming with a woman! I want her to as well! Yay for coming!!!!!! But accessing my orgasm for me is still about safety. I just need practice and familiarity, and an open zone for having fun with someone who wants to be there beside me. I tried paying someone for it. Doesn’t work for me. I want someone who wants to be there with me. Not who needs to be there, or puts on a facade of interest. Its hard for me. There is nothing more beautiful than having a woman open her legs and let you inside her. To look at her and feel that she chose to be there out of her own free will? (Don’t worry, I’m not naive. I’ve heard from many on both genders how we can be seduced and tricked, that’s not really my point though.)
So I know there is still some shame, and sensitive feelings. But the awakening I’ve had a few years ago, along with my own healing in general, facing a lot about myself, all this has boosted my desire to drop my inhibitions. I’m going in stages too, and to put pressure on this would be stupid and dangerous (as people here have kindly wrote to me).
Body shame issues are another topic entirely and in my case, unrelated to my refractory period.
I know a thing or two about body shame. I have experienced it directly all my life…as most women seem to for different reasons.
For me it was the whole fat= unattractive and lazy, a character flaw and one which no amount of being thinner will cure. That’s because once I was thinner I knew deep inside that the same men who would have sex with me while I was thinner would not have liked me at all when I was fat. It made for some weird thoughts and feelings along life’s path.
Just as a rich man doubts the love of any person because he fears being “loved” only for his riches, I feared being desired only for my thinner body. The fear that the love would dissolve if I became fat again was always there. So it is no surprise that I know my current husband loves me because I was fat when he met me and fell in love with me. The fear now is that if I ever got thin again, would he no longer desire me? Women’s sense of self is so tied up in our bodies by our cultural conditioning.
People can talk about fat acceptance or age acceptance but the truth is, we all feel the responses we get while in society and those cannot be ignored completely. I got better treatment across the board while I was thinner. Bosses gave me better raises, counter people treated me better and women accepted me better…unless I was deemed a threat to their own self worth (if they thought I was more attractive than they were).
It is fine to say we can change how we feel about ourselves but we cannot change how others treat us and that can make life bearable or miserable no matter how well we love ourselves. No one lives alone on a deserted island with only non-judgmental animals as mirrors to the self.
“A number of phenomena are associated with “refractory period.” There is something called libido drop, which in common language sometimes manifests as, “I love you till I cum.” …snip….There is also the quick recession of erotic feelings or empathy; shame and guilt can rush into the space that was previously held open by the energy of orgasm; there can be an extreme interest or disgust….snip….I think that all of this describes the same basic psychic condition, which is a split within the emotional body. It’s described by various psychological models (good self/shadow self, for example, or id/superego, or ordinary consciousness vs expanded erotic consciousness). One characteristic of the split is that from either side, the existence of the other side is not obvious or even accessible.”
I can’t speak for anyone else but my refractory period has nothing to do with body shame, shadow side issues, or “I love you until I cum.” It just is a period that my body seems to need before I can orgasm again. Even during masturbaton, if I continue to stimulate myself I cannot orgasm for about 15 minutes. I just don’t drop to plateau; instead i drop all the way back to the beginning state.
I always wondered how women had multiple orgasms until I had one. It was about 6 months after I had my third child. Dave and I were having sex, me on top, when I began to orgasm. It peaked, the contractions really strong and then they tapered off but as Dave always finishes after me, we kept moving and I felt a smaller series of contractions within seconds of the last one tapering off. It was sort of like a “pop” feeling. I have never had that since so it was really a strange phenomena for me.
I recently learned (by direct experience) that women need all three hormones to orgasm; estrogen to have the orgasm, progesterone to feel the blood welling up in the vaginal walls and testosterone to feel the desire and to assist the estrogen.
Sometimes, just as men wake with an erection and find it difficult to pee while it is there, I sometimes wake up and feel like I am peeing through a teeny tube instead of my urethra. Since infants (both male and female) have engorgement of the penis/clitoris in utero, I figure that continues through the life span.
These are things people don’t discuss much. Like the fact that a lot of women should urinate after sex so as to keep from getting a bladder infection.
Not everything is about shame or shadow issues; sometimes they are just physiological things.
I get body shame, Eric – oh yes. Mine and others’. As a woman, there is shame to be faced everywhere I turn – from mother, media, myself. Having said that, I have had experiences with men where shame becomes … close to irrelevant. I have experienced refractory periods; I have experienced continuous waves of orgasm. For me it hinges on how I feel about myself with that other person. And I emphasise here that this is not what I assume anyone else does or does not feel.
A number of phenomena are associated with “refractory period.” There is something called libido drop, which in common language sometimes manifests as, “I love you till I cum.”
There is also the quick recession of erotic feelings or empathy; shame and guilt can rush into the space that was previously held open by the energy of orgasm; there can be an extreme interest or disgust. Many have noticed the feelings that some men have about their semen post-ejaculating — even in ‘average’ situations they can express distaste or disgust (while expecting their partners to be turned on by it, or to demean themselves by taking it in/on).
I think that all of this describes the same basic psychic condition, which is a split within the emotional body. It’s described by various psychological models (good self/shadow self, for example, or id/superego, or ordinary consciousness vs expanded erotic consciousness). One characteristic of the split is that from either side, the existence of the other side is not obvious or even accessible.
It can have some frustrating manifestations — like the drive to get off, followed by a lack of fulfillment (or worse, a sense of shame) from doing so. I think that this also works as a metaphor in western culture, where we seem to seek and seek and only rarely find satisfaction — and if we do, it has little to do with the external and much more to do with our state of mind.
Addressing the erotic aspect of this experience, to get past it requires a good bit of inner exploration, and going into the dark spaces where those feelings reside. By going into, I mean moving your awareness to be there, and allowing the thoughts to stay in your consciousness once they come up.
Part of why I believe it’s so crucial to explore masturbation with our partners is that we can work with these feelings with a little more distance, taking ownership of them as inner experiences rather than something we experience “as a result of” sex with someone else. That slight objective edge can be very helpful.
I could say more about body shame — as relates to this theme…anyone picking up the scent?
Carrie, Pam! I love the feedback and sharing of experience. Thank you for being such open amazing women.
I forgot to add that the refractory period for me happens no matter what kind of sex I am having; with a partner or with myself. Even during my most high libido times (during pregnancy for example) that held true.
And if you accompanied her to her orgasm, perhaps another time (if you wanted) she could accompany you after – you might need to set it up before and she might need a moment to come back to herself
Pam,
Re: multiple orgasms ~ Me neither (well once but that’s it). I also have a refractory period (like men) which goes against the research on women’s orgasmic and sexual responses. The research says that after orgasm, a woman remains at plateau and can rise fast to orgasm again. That’s not what happens to me; after orgasm I drop down to the starting point so having another means working my way back up from the bottom. It takes a while to do that the second (and third and more) time. So don’t feel weird; you are not the only one.
maybe it isn’t about touch but live space between you – however close you are?
HS, my favourite part of sex is how you meet, become one skin, how the energy circuits meet up, how you touch your partner anywhere and he touches you and you can feel that you are one – the energy connected between you, wherever and however you touch. I’m sure as a scorpio you are deeply intuitive, probly that’s enough to take you anywhere and back again
ps not one for multiple orgasms apparently. Yet;
Hugging, the second time I had sex it was one of those grind, everything out of rhythm, out of phase out of everything things that went on and on and on and got nowhere, and my friend was so kind. he laughed and said sometimes it just goes that way, another day will be different.
And another thing. I spent years with a guy who prefered that I came before he did and that was hard work, he would get off on my coming, so it was rarely a together thing, but I got quite good at either semi coming (faking it didn’t work) and waiting for him or not minding that he then came in me later. I even came to like that he stayed inside me until he came, tho it seemed too much in the beginning. We found our ways to each other. Occasionally he would be overcome with a wind of passion, and I loved that all the more because it was rare. It was also interesting to realise that the differences are huge in likes and dislikes etc and possibilities.
Praps she thought you might want to be private and it wasn’t a brush off?
HS,
:::jumping in here:::: Thanks for sharing such an intimate moment of your life, HS. I agree with a lot of what everyone else is saying. I masturbated as a child (from age 3, with orgasms) but was so shamed by my family for doing it that it was VERY difficult for me to do it in front of Dave.
I was also raised to believe (as are many women) that if a man prefers masturbation it means he is rejecting me somehow. It means he is unwilling to give me that part of himself inside me. As soon as I began having sex, I LOVED the feeling of the guy coming in me and that he was leaving a small part of his most intimate self deep inside me. I would enjoy the smell of his “gift’ for days afterward. So if a man chose not to come inside me but to masturbate, I felt cheated of his gift, of that most sacred part of himself. I was also raised that masturbation shuts out the other person so she may have felt that as well. Programming is a huge part of people’s reaction to masturbation.
I cannot say if she is conditioned like that but it is a possibility. I do know that a lot of people see masturbation as a “lousy replacement” for the “real thing.” So as others here have said, she is probably dealing with programming and it messed her up.
I also know that if I had an orgasm and he hasn’t, giving him oral sex is amazing because then I get to feel him let loose and it is a powerful feeling. I feel his trust in me, his letting go and surrendering to his pleasure while I get to watch and feel it, is a big gift to me as well.
You are not doing anything bad, HS. I think it is just her programming or conditioning from her family, other lovers, and society that you are dealing with and as others have said; it isn’t your job to help her with that (unless you want to).
I also agree that the cuddling and touching afterward means a lot; my one night stands didn’t have that but I have it (and do it) now.
Eric, great advice, and I actually took it based on your writings. On our 3rd date (which was really our first since about 6 months from the first 2 when we met), we made a detour to this little jazz place and had a glass of wine. I talked a bit of my history and opened up the discussion about masturbation. I wanted to see her reaction and how comfortable she was with it. It was very mildly awkward, but she seemed okay with the subject. She emphasized taking that experience to the next level as “sex is completely different with another person” and that you can’t just keep masturbating. I agreed, but made the point of self nourishment and gaining the awareness of affection and touch, first with ourselves so that we can then learn how to give. She def didn’t have this conversation before. But then she said to me a week later that she would like to help my sexual life and that it was okay to have some fun together. It was a good experiment for both of us. But yes, she did have some issues to sort out (as we all do) particularly surrounding her father being emotionally absent as a young girl, her desire for much older men, and there was their rougher sexual appetites that she felt pressured to accommodate. So, I treated her with care, but still had to draw a line now.
It is certain that this last square of Venus and Mars will tremble of excitement in love links. I have more in memory of the first two squares of Venus March dates.
January March began its retrograde March and putting on the table the issues related to the sexual games between two individuals. It is not top in bed Ah? , Retro March is as powerful, it loses its effectiveness and must support the frustrations of his libido…. then it resumed with sentence its direct walk that is Venus starts to sulk… uh you want more of me? … Watch the movement of Venus and Mars in the ephemeris is the copy of many couples that live in their lives intimate and why today there are so many divorces…. Venus and Mars are very often in war and we want more and more relations a authentic which in reality does not exist, take example on Venus and Mars on the Zodiac race… Very often when Mars is in agreement to be conciliatory Venus takes these distance (retrograde phase) and to follow complications fierce clash, reconciliation under the Duvet, it is the rollercoaster of love with these emotions of this difficulty letting go chips taken, it is as cursed by the passion when Venus in contact with March, the lights of love ashtray of the Interior to be reborn later ash….
One sniff test of a sex partner is masturbate together first.
You would be surprised how daring this can be, and also how natural. It is however a nice way into sexual relating and it’s a way to see some of what’s there before you might otherwise. It’s not a perfect method but at least it’s fun, and educational.
You can also run some articles on masturbation (found on your friendly neighborhood astrology website) past any potential love interest, or invite them over for a screening of one of Betty Dodson’s videos.
Eric, I really appreciate you jumping in here. I went to bed feeling like a bag of sour tomatoes. This really gave me a nice push. Thank you dearly. I also felt like you pulled me back a bit from judging her too much. I know we all have things and baggage to work out, esp around sex, and it would be great for me to always remember that, and to just let this go. And I mean move on.
Lula, Huffy, thanks for opening up more and sharing in this convo deeply. A beautiful space this PW blog.
Eric – thanks for saying so eloquently what I was trying to say but failing… 😉
Ps and Hugging, want to make it very clear that I don’t think that you should feel in any way obliged to take this woman’s issues on – or that you should feel any guilt about what happened.
“How a person feels about masturbation represents how they feel about sex”. So true.
“HS, clearly this person has a diversity of feelings of inadequacy, which have surfaced in this way”. Yes – had hesitated about writing this, but after reading Eric’s post, will do so. When I was younger, I was what one would call a ‘selfish’ sexual partner, on the surface narcissistic and ungenerous in lovemaking, only interested in satisfying my own sexual needs. It wasn’t until I entered into a long-term relationship that this whole issue came up to be examined, and i realised that I loved sex, but was afraid of penises. This was because I was sexually abused by my older brother when I was a child. Gradually, with my partner, I was able to work through this fear and release a lot of baggage. This to say that many of us carry a lot of stuff that we don’t even realise we’re carrying, and that it takes a lot of time and trust to release that stuff. Not to say that the woman you were with had the same issues as me, dear Hugging, but that there are definitely issues there – which cannot be addressed until the person realises that she has them. As happened to me.
Hey cousins,
I don’t need to say much here — you’re all on the right track.
Just one thought. How a person feels about masturbation represents how they feel about sex. Nearly everyone will tell you they like sex. Many will reveal some kind of inhibition or reservation about self-sex. It may emerge in the first conversation, or on the Jerry Springer show, or it may slip out as the kind of conversation HS is describing below.
The material (‘baggage’) that a person brings into sex is the same material they have around masturbation, since masturbation is proto-sex. It’s like the spawning pool of all sexual emotions, anywhere on the spectrum. Within this I include the relational realm. (I realize I am making statements that seem absolute, though check my logic please.)
Masturbation is relational. It begins with expressing the relationship we have to ourselves, and then it ripples out into an experiment in how the people around us relating to ourselves. Usually this is the material that is projected into the relationship: that is to day, the little dark spots that are concealed and then, as a function of relating to another person, appear “in the relationship” like you turned on the UV light in the motel room.
How a person relates to, and feels about, us relating to ourselves is perhaps the most significant thing about the partner (or us as the case may be). It is really what we do when a relationship works well — hold space for someone to exist (“in relationship” to us). Listen and you will hear a lot of stories.
HS, clearly this person has a diversity of feelings of inadequacy, which have surfaced in this way.
I would also point to a study done by some professors at my university — which I cannot cite, but it would be easy to find. The study found that couples who engage in “afterplay,” that is, playful touching after orgasm, are the ones who love one another and/or are more loving toward one another (however you choose). Sexual energy recedes that rapidly when there is not love or a loving perspective.
[I don’t mean “in love” — I mean loving, affectionate, appreciative. I don’t know how the methodology of the study defined loving, though the point is clear to me.]
If someone’s sexual energy recedes after orgasm or they go into judgmental mode, or guilt/shame mode (same thing) the aspect to work with, or explore further, or to note, is the loving aspect rather than the sexual one per se. We could say a lot about this space — what it means for the psyche to have two modes of existence, pre- and post-orgasm, though I think they are spaces that exist all the time but which are only available part of the time.
Part of the integration of Venus transiting the Sun in Gemini (and Venus retrograde in general) is about raising awareness of these two hemispheres of consciousness, and consciously integrating them. There is a lot of erotic and loving energy bound up on the “non-sexual” hemisphere.
ef
I’m hoping it’s possible too, HS.
So, what’s your name and where do you live?! I’ll be there as soon as I can! 😉
Dear Lula, “When you’re just starting out and feeling as vulnerable as you are, you need to be with someone who can mentor you through it.”
Yes. I really need this. And I need to really like her as a friend too. It’s hard for me to express how important it is that I have an emotional connection. Its funny, I can spend a good deal of effort in building that bridge and talking, communicating, spending time together because I want so much to just shut up later. Operating on touch and care and affection without the talking – just understanding. I hope it’s possible!
Thank you!
Hi HS…
Just another thing to think about, amongst so many things that are probably flying through your head right now… Sexual energy is a strange thing, in my experience. You can feel absolutely connected with the person you’re with, then realise that the person you were actually connecting with was yourself, and the other person was merely keeping pace with you. Since many people associate masturbation with self-pleasure rather than the kind of intimate sharing that you were engaged with, it’s possible that she just missed your intention. However, given that you had already discussed things at length, this is sounds unlikely.
Perhaps, then, your masturbation felt odd to her, especially after she had had her orgasm already. I’m always taken aback by the speed at which sex energy recedes following orgasm, and seeing someone else still in that space when I’ve already left it can be a little jarring. It takes a lot of emotional and sexual maturity to be able to stay with it and be with that person until they reach their peak, so perhaps your lady is holding back some issues of her own? Or not as sexually mature as you need her to be? When you’re just starting out and feeling as vulnerable as you are, you need to be with someone who can mentor you through it. It sounds like this lady is perhaps not able to be that person for you. Just a thought – it just sounded like she was not able to bridge the disconnect between her satiation and your hunger at that precise moment.
HS,
I was thinking more of men of this blog, or men who are on an inner path themselves… maybe your friend is perfect, I don’t know.
Huffy, Paola, Sarah, I treasure your feedback. Thank you from my heart.
Huffy, I will check out that book!! And, btw, I already talked with her about where I was coming from and how I really needed her support. I didn’t leave anything out either. The reason I opened myself back up to her was because I thought she understood. Not that it is ever only about me. Certainly I’ve done so much to comfort her and make her feel special.
Paola, yes, a Dad would come in handy right about now. Alas, I’m on my own. But I have a buddy of mine I can grab a beer with.
Sarah, holding space is the perfect term actually. We had a couple of successes, and I’ve had one with another woman recently too. The latter woman (my married affair!) just held me in such a way that said, take your time, I’m happy I’m here with you, you are safe, allow yourself to feel safe. Then it happened no problem, I was able to sink into that and let go. That was a first step and I can build on that. So thank you! 🙂 I don’t have to take it on you’re right. I want different things, and that is okay.
I just think that if it was the other way around, where all she knew was to masturbate, and that was what she needed right now, her doing it in front of me would show me she is really opening up to me. I would treasure that and hold her so that she can build on that trust and slow release. I would never say anything to make her feel that that is something she should feel awkward about. Sexual energy is like this seed (pardon my cliche moment here), that takes time to germinate, grow roots, and bloom. It must be handled with care!
((((((ALL))))))
Super big Hugs!
HS
It also feels very much like a Venus Rx experience, HS.
HS – I’m touched that you have shared such a personal experience here. Obviously, I have no idea of the nuances in the encounter, but from what you have written, and speaking personally: being able to masturbate in front of someone feels deeply intimate to me, and offers an opportunity to open up, share, bear witness and hold space (oh, how I dislike that last term, but I can’t think of anything else appropriate right now!). I can’t tell whether her response was to the particular circumstances, or if she sees all masturbation as excluding her and something that is inappropriate between two people. If the latter, then there is obviously a mismatch of expectations, a lack of give and take, and/or a fundamental incompatibility. In which case, you don’t have to take it on. You just want different things. ((((HS))))
Hugging – was just thinking – without wanting to be judgemental, perhaps another woman, having had her orgasm, would have then made sure you had yours too. It’s good to have give and take, both in and out of the sack.
That said, if, once you’re feeling less hurt – you were able to sit down and talk to this woman abut what happened, think it would be really healing for both of you – and you’d learn so much.
“If there’s a sacrifice involved, it’s a kind of habitual insecurity that you ignite on the altar of progress”. Love it! Thank you, Eric (where are those matches?)
Hi HS,
I just want to thank you for sharing such an intimate event, and to let you know that you are listend to.
– maybe a man is more apt for an answer (just a feeling).
Hugging dear, was just about to write a response to Eric’s wonderful oracle, when your post popped up! It’s a very delicate thing – the business of pleasuring oneself next to ones sexual partner. I remember once starting to have a go at it with my then boyfriend, before I had yet discovered how to masturbate properly, and he was really upset, asked me to stop. I’ve also talked to women friends who have complained about their sexual mate doing it, and who were offended and angry about it. It was obviously the most natural thing in the world for you to do, also because you were sharing it with your woman. But she was unable to see it, and it set off something in her. Oy vei, relationhips are so complicated! And I won’t say anything else except, I really suggest reading the chapter Enlightened Relationships in The Power of Now – funnily enough I was re-reading it today – and it explains exactly why we get hurt and hurt eachother in relationships – I think you’ll find it balm for your soul.xxx
I’m going to write something private here because I need to share it for a few reasons. A part of me is looking for forgiveness, and a bigger part of me just wants people to hear for possible affirmation.
Last night I got together with a woman I was dating for just a couple of months, which kinda ended over a month ago. I/we were finding that maybe we weren’t good matches sexually. Although we got along great as friends, in the sack it was harder. I had some issues because I’m still pretty fresh off the virgin wagon. We stopped seeing each other because I felt she was impatient with me, which caused me not only to loose Mr Happy but have trouble reaching orgasm. I thought maybe time away from her would do the trick. We talked things over quite well too and before last night, I felt safe to try again.
So, last night my confidence was back, I felt amazing, she was cool, and we tried again. It was going great and she had a great orgasm. I was doing great too….but as I tried to reach my orgasm, by doing things I was used to and sharing being with her, she lies beside me and says, “do you want me to go over into the next room, because you’re just having sex with yourself now.”
As I tried to brush that off asking her to stay, I realized I was right back in the shithole space I ran from with her. I got up, paused, and said “I can’t do this anymore”. After coming out of the bathroom to wash my face, I asked her to leave. I said, “after all this time, how can you say something like that to me? I shared a deep part of myself with you and brought you pleasure, and you humiliate me in my most vulnerable state?”
And she left. And I was shaking inside because all this happened just as I was peaking, or trying to. Why did I deserve that? How can someone be so absolutely careless? And when I closed my apt door on her, I felt this combination of self empowerment and guilt. Guilt, that by speaking my mind or acting on how I felt, I would hurt her. That after all this, I would be more concerned with hurting her feelings?
Today, I am keeping myself from this precipice of self criticism that I am not man enough. I hope that by acting as I did, from this space of integrity to myself and how I felt, from that most vulnerable sexual state, I was more of a Man than ever before in my life.
Thanks for reading this,
HS
Eric, in one report I listened to last year you spoke about how many artists (I use the word in the widest sense possible) fear they’re going to be arrested or get into trouble when they are working on the leading edge of their creativity. I really get that now (and thank you for drawing my attention to it), because my sense of ‘getting into trouble’ is the fear that I am going to die if I step into who it is that I feel I’m becoming. So there’s that feeling of danger, right there. Good to know I can work with it.
I would say it’s essential — and then you go past that…
‘… both potential and the responsibility of freedom, as well as the power and the sense of danger that comes with it’. So it’s normal to feel the sense of danger??!!! Ah!