I’ve been saying for years that I never experienced any discrimination as a woman, but I have had 2 incidents over the past several years. One was just a humorous incident, but the other was pretty serious.
The first one was when I was first online in chat rooms. I used a gender neutral name, and was participating in theological discussions online. Deep into one heavy debate, someone said to me, “Excellent point, Brother!” When I corrected him and said, “Sister,” he was floored. He didn’t know that a woman could hold her own in a theological debate. He couldn’t comprehend that I had actually attended Divinity School.
But the serious one occurred just last year. I was teaching for a Business College. A few short months after I started teaching there, we had a huge upset in terms of administration, and they brought on someone as College President who was solely concerned with the bottom line. He and I engaged in a few discussions during staff meetings when he was trying to put down the “academics” who he felt were not team players. When I made some statements that he could neither deny nor fault my logic, he began to dislike me. It didn’t take long till I fell under his “3 strikes” policy. The final straw came when a student made a complaint because I asked her not to skip class again because she was failing. He called me in and already had my exit paperwork ready to sign. When I asked if he wanted to hear my side of the story, he said, “Not really.”
Thanks for letting me air this. If you have any questions for me, I’ll be online again in 2 hours.
==
there was an old cartoon my dad gave to me. It was from playboy, I think. 2 male researchers were standing in front of a chalkboard tongues out at a massive equation / proof. The female researcher who, chalk in hand, had written the equation, is quoted as “I have a body too, you know.”
==
This is a rich discussion you have touched on, Eric, but I feel like my comments are going to poke at the edges of it. So, I’ll poke. I often feel that, as an intelligent woman (and an electrical engineer, so I know more about “guy stuff” than a lot of men do!), finding a man who I will be able to allow myself to fully surrender to, to allow him to take the lead and be “the guy”, has been a challenge. I’m often worried that I’ll end up slicing a man’s balls off accidentally, or end up being a weird sort of “mommy”/patronizing (matronizing?) toward him, because of my technical aptitude. What I know doesn’t “fit” into the perspective people have of the box called “woman”. And being both smart and technical? I forget I’m smarter / more logical / more… Something than a lot of other people, and am often shocked / disappointed at what other people don’t understand.
==
There are still a number of churches (including the ones I grew up in–Southern Baptist and Christian) who will not allow women to be clergy, because of that verse in 1 Timothy…. In fact, women are not allowed any positions of authority in the church higher than “sunday school teacher”; they can’t be deacons or pastors; they are not on the “board of directors” (which is the deacons and pastor); they don’t offer public prayers during the service or pass the offering plates. They don’t get a say in any of the business of the church (anything important), so far as I can tell. Maybe some of that has changed since I last went to church, but I doubt that much of it has. Probably seems like an obsolete example to most, but as I was raised in the church (like a fish in water), it had a pretty large impact on me, and how I perceived women including myself, and what I thought my options were as a woman.
==
Charlene, I visited the Mormons in Salt Lake (as a tourist) and their young women seemed like they had largely been lobotomized. And similar things as what you’ve listed. Women’s jobs are to be mommies.
==
When I was 22, I started working as a small business training consultant. The situation I was in, leading workshops and checking how business leaders were implementing their learning in the workplace meant I was often in one-to-one sessions, with MDs of successful businesses, as a person of ‘power’ (of course, I was merely a facilitator). More than once my employer was taken aside by clients and asked what my credentials were. Perhaps they were right to ask this – I was, after all, only 22. I would indeed put that down to them questioning the breadth of my experience, were it not for the fact that this continued throughout my consulting career. It didn’t help that I was blonde and reasonably physically passable. Sexism in the workplace – the kind of casual, day to day remarks that men (and sometimes women) make about intelligent women – was rife throughout my career. I remember once co-presenting a sales pitch about a business improvement programme to a group of public sector workers. My colleague and I were both 7 months pregnant. When we left the room at the end, we heard people commenting loudly that they wouldn’t buy a programme from our company because it was bound to be unstable and hormonally driven. Our presentation, if I may say so myself, was quite brilliant, and we had been at pains to point out that it wouldn’t be us delivering the project anyway. Now, when I tell people about some of the projects I’ve managed, they seem surprised that a 35 year old blonde woman could pull off that level of accomplishment.
==
there is also a connection between “beauty” and “intellect” to be explored as part of this discussion. A man with gray hair is considered to be more experienced, and more valuable. A woman with gray hair is just considered old. I look about 10 years younger than my age, and I do dye my hair for the sake of fun and beauty, but I have to think it has an impact on my professional impact…. (and I passed the PE exam without studying for it!)
==
I tested for a job as a telephone operator 40+ years ago. I was turned down because I was “too intelligent and won’t remain” in the job. The 20 years of harassment I suffered as a die maker was because U female period, and had little to do with the fact that I was more intelligent than most of my male co-workers.
==
when I started work at a paper mill as an engineer (first job out of college) I found out a couple years into the job that the managers had made the electricians clear the girlie images out of their lockers before I arrived. I was the “enemy” before I walked in the door.
==
I think the difficulty in this request, Eric, is that to draw a line between when you were discriminated against as an intelligent woman is different than being discriminated against because you are intelligent as a woman. Does this relate more to discrimination faced in relation to other women, such as in a dating environment? Or is it discrimination faced because, as an intelligent woman, you’re placed in environments that the less-academically-minded woman wouldn’t find herself in?
==
Great topic for discussion, Eric! I remember someone telling me in high school that it was a good idea to always let the guy win in sports, even if you were better than them. If you beat them, they would NEVER ask you out again! But to get back to your original subject of women being discriminated against for being “too intelligent”–My own experience was of having a pretty independent and strong-minded mother who read a lot of books, and was never shy about speaking her mind. I think that having such a strong role model gave me some courage to “just keep going”, regardless of being aware of men being shocked and surprised when a woman would enter a conversation and have a lot to contribute. I think my most vivid memory feeling ignored or “shunned” for being “too smart” was once when I was married to an officer in the US Navy. At these gatherings the women would all group together to discuss babies and recipes, while the men mostly discussed politics and war! It was verboten to even attempt to join the men’s conversation, because it meant that you were probably trying to steal someone’s husband. And interestingly enough, I felt the most pressure to “conform” coming from the women–I even heard that a rumor was going around that I read books–a highly suspect activity!
==
this all seems to tie back to the archetype of the courtesan, and her shadow, the “handless maiden”.
==
For every intelligent woman downplaying her smarts to become more “acceptable to men”, there’s an intelligent man lamenting the apparent dearth of women smart enough to hold their own in a conversation with him or even show him a thing or two about a thing or two. I suspect it isn’t really about intelligence per se, just as schoolyard taunts aren’t about straight or curly hair or skinniness or pudginess or glasses or freckles or whatnot; the difference is not the cause of the bullying, just the arbitrary occasion for it. Better questions may be, why do many men insist on taunting women over any notable difference she may exhibit, and why do many women take this taunting as indicative of the actual preferences or attitudes of all men? It may just be social hierarchy testing, aka “giving each other shit” — if you can let it bounce off you and give back as good a teasing as you got, you’re accepted as an equal, but if you take it personally and let it get to you, you’re taking a subordinate role and treated accordingly. “Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent” (-Eleanor Roosevelt)
==
Maybe it’s just my generation (Gen Xer here, just turned 40) and/or the school of liberal geeks and nerds I tend to swim with, but in my (limited, personal) experience the very notion of shunning a woman (or anyone, really) for being too smart, capable or educated is just quite alien and, frankly, baffling to even contemplate. Progress?
==
Kim Chernin (author) says in her book “Reinventing Eve” that the dominant culture gives women only two ways to have power: sexuality (as in, sleeping your way to the top), and male identification. Sue Monk Kidd (another author) offers a third: being the dutiful daughter (for your whole life). This third road is definitely the one advocated in the more conservative places, though my dad encouraged my intellect and I spent years trying to be a good son. Maybe the question is less about experiencing discrimination for being “too intelligent”, but about what parts of ourselves we’re still asked to amputate in order to have power by any of these three roads.
==
Hi Eric ~ I sometimes experienced male colleagues who didn’t yet know me treating me as if I was stupid, assuming I was less capable than them, speaking to me in a patronising, sexist way etc. I also had a lot of really great male colleagues who were not like that at all, and also some wonderful female colleagues and some thoroughly nasty ones. My response to perceived slights was to be very tough, aggressive and outspoken, and so these people quickly knew not to cross me — I found this much quicker than waiting for them to consider I’d “proved myself” sufficiently to be treated with respect. So it changed me a lot, I was a shy fish girl. The other downside was I never got promoted by the people whose heads I bit off, and yet, men with far bigger gobs than mine were admired for it and promoted. The main thing I notice in dealing with people more recently is how absolutely nothing has changed. I would say I come up against assumptions more often now online than I did in person in the 80’s, probably due to the communication barrier — e.g., before I had my Twitter pic linked from my site, people would usually email me assuming I was a man. What I’m saying is I’ve never experienced being seen as “too intelligent”, but I’ve frequently experienced being assumed to be less smart than a man. Thinking about why the original question didn’t ding with me — I think, relationship-wise, men who would be threatened by a reasonably intelligent woman probably just aren’t on my radar, they’re automatically of no interest to me, so maybe I just wouldn’t really notice that they’d rejected me — and what Amanda said. x
==
Tyson, if the woman you are dating / involved with, told you that you did something wrong with your car/computer/garbage disposal and told you how to fix it, how would your ego handle it?
==
Yes amputation of self sounds right. Don’t see myself as victim of it as I used to; it’s my responsibility to maintain conscious of how I may threaten others and threaten them anyway. Lol
==
i was in a relationship several years back where my partner treated my like a dumb girl all the time, even though he knew i was just as intelligent as he was. after the relationship ended, it took years of counseling to get back in a good space. he really made me start to doubt myself.
==
Kathleen, it would be so irrelevant to my ego that the question surprises me. I would simply consider the content of her suggestions and evaluate whether they had actual merit to solve the problem stated or at hand. I might take up the suggestion if warranted or decline to pursue it otherwise, and I might explain the reasoning and knowledge behind that decision, particularly if asked, but my accepting or dismissing the suggestion has nothing to do with accepting, dismissing, or valuing her personally, nor any sort of ego defense on my part. That said, it occurs to me the matter of feeling that one’s ideas are at least heard and considered is an ego issue — i.e., that having them dismissed, whatever the reason, can be taken as a personal rejection or denigration of one’s own worth and capability, blurring the distinction between having one’s ideas prejudicially dismissed out of hand vs. having them dismissed for legitimate rationales inherent to the subject at hand.
==
I think that sometimes the discrimination and prejudice are actually unconscious on the part of the people doing the discriminating. And/or are aggravated by the ways women learned very young to be victims or hide their intelligence, or whatever. My husband, for example, will tell you if you ask him that I am just as smart as he is. However, if I tell him what I think is wrong with the car (or more often, the antique VW microbus), he’ll often dismiss my suggestion out of hand. Even though I’ve been right about it at least as often as he has. Is it because I don’t always know the proper lingo (having not been raised in my dad’s shop, as he was), or because I’m a woman, or because I’m not particularly forceful or confident in giving my opinion (because I was raised to always doubt myself)? Who knows? Will becoming a cocky bastard like he is help at all? Or will it make others less likely to believe what I say because I’m more often mistaken when I sound like I know what I’m talking about? I really don’t have any idea.
*Or maybe he just dismisses my suggestion because he’s so sure he’s right…even when he’s not. Hard to say.
==
This topic used to drive me insane. I think we can all agree it has happened over and over again. The bigger question is how to respond. I am afraid I have acted out of rage at times. I tried to understand why anyone would feel threatened by intelligence and came to the conclusion it is their problem, not mine, so I need to not hide it or play down my gifts in any scenario that I may encounter. On the other hand to try to show off or be superior is just as damaging. Reading about great women such as WIlma Mankiller and Gloria Steinam have helped so much but this has been a slow process to find a balance and know when to stand up and know when to just “let it be” because it is not my problem.
==
I have always been refused jobs because I’m overqualified. When I was 16 I went for an interview to be articled to a solicitor, and they told me I was over qualified because I had 8 O levels and they only wanted 5! I went thru the education system and got a degree in 1980 – had to retrain as a secretary and went for a job as an audio secretary a mile away from where I lived. They said they couldn’t give me the job as they feared I’d get bored! (They obviously weren’t watching daytime TV in the 1980s…)
==
Although no actual proof – but have had that told to me and I had worked in one of the “Ivy League” institutions and I am from a working middle class and limited formal education
==
gosh, when I was in the Buddhist community in Boulder one friend of mine (another woman) and I found that our stories were sooooo similar as we are both intelligent and well educated…can’t remember the stories we told each other now as that was 37 years ago. Just remember that it was a revolution in my nervous system to find a friend who knew precisely what I had always been up against. and about 10 years ago for 5 years, I kept having something just odd happen in a Hindi community in town…a community started by Ram Dass. Had one guy who was a caretaker come up to me aggressively enough that when another caretaker saw what was happening, the guy was told that he could not speak to me (at all). Well, at every opportunity after that, the dude would come up to me inches from my face, smile and say hello Mary…and then walk away. Most of the underlying issue was about who had the power and that my intelligence was threatening to the dude. Left the community, and haven’t had that kind of incident since. one other thing…I married a cute guy…who’s not as intelligent as I am…and after the divorce, it seemed to me that one of the most prime reasons the marriage did not work is because it was psychologically castrating for him to be with a women who thought twice as fast and 5 times as much as he did or could.
==
”You don’t need a Phd to be an executive assistant (College Principal); “The problem is, Nilou, you’re just too good” (Deputy University Librarian); “I didn’t x, y, z, because I was jealous” (Father of my two youngest boys last year – that was hard to hear after 15 years). Fortunately there were other voices too, and I’ve always had my own mind even when I didn’t know it. I once told a friend if there’s going to a holy mess, I want to know that it was my decision to go that way, even just for the finding out. Right now I’m in a brilliant mood and it seems all so, well silly….For me life is not a race or a competition (thanks to wherever that idea came from) so no matter what they say I wont be losing. Is it the glow of my dark skin, my shape of my behind, my only-women-understand-this-kind-of-laughter (it needs a certain kind of cavity in the belly), or my searing intellect? Who knows? – dont know if this is any help but couldn’t resist sharing on this one. All best…
==
have dated an Aquarian and a Leo since my divorce, both are brillant men…and relating with an intellectual equal is soooo vastly different, ahhhhh…more of that only-women-understand-this kind of laughter
==
This has happened to me more times than I can count in romantic situations — or would-be romantic situations. Some men men have been very interested in me until they realized that I’m intelligent, well-read, articulate, and not afraid to assert it. (Aries with a stellium in Sadge in the third). Once they felt too challenged, they bailed. But on the other hand — I cannot fall in love with a man unless he’s smarter than me, much smarter. Which, I suppose, is why I’m single.
==
It happened in my marriage…my now ex- always said I was smarter than he; it really annoyed him and thus the competition began in an arena that was to be a ‘safe place to fall’…
==
Over and over again I have felt the discrimination against intelligent women. It happened wherever I worked. If the manager saw how intelligent I was, he or she felt threatened and found ways to undermine me. For example, they would load me with an impossible task (lack of resources, lack of training) and then have another employee do the same job behind me and then report that they were able to accomplish it in half the time. This was done despite the fact that I was already doing twice and three times the workload the rest of the department was doing. Every time I left a job (either from being fired or from feeling frustrated by the discrimination I experienced) they had to hire three people to do the work I was doing by myself.
In school, I was accused of being “stuck up” because I was smart. Other kids (especially girls) would steal my homework and rip it up. They harassed me, picked on me, called me names and made me realize that I would have to hide my innate intelligence because it wasn’t rewarded. Even teachers would ignore my accomplishments to the point that sometimes another student would point out that I had the highest grade in the class. When the student did, everyone was amazed because I was so quiet and nondescript in order to keep the discrimination at bay.
Men seemed more attracted to me when I hid my intelligence. If I seemed too smart, they couldn’t leave fast enough. So I used sex to get men because I realized that they didn’t value my smarts; they just valued my willingness to have sex without strings attached.
My older brother used to call unaware people “sheep” way before it was in common usage. The thing is, I reminded him that those so-called “sheep” had some kind of radar that could detect intelligent people like me because despite my own efforts to denigrate myself in front of others (“I read that somewhere”…or “someone told me that”…or “I am not the one that came up with that…”) they seemed to know too often.
I have spent my whole life negating any accomplishments I have made because of my intelligence. I never give myself credit because to do so means I will be seen as (and treated as) “stuck up” or pretentious. It is fine for anyone else to be smart, just not me. Guys around me are always bragging about their smarts and accomplishments but god forbid I take any personal credit for something smart I do. The repercussions are always negative if I do.
My own mother really made it a point to make me feel stupid as often as she could even as she would brag about how smart I am. She would never believe me if I told her something I learned, found, realized, or noticed. She would argue loudly and long against my flashes of intelligence to the point that I doubted myself for a long time.
My husband is the first male I have ever met who values my intelligence and is not threatened by it. He actually encourages me to be my intelligent self and to take credit for it; he is continually proud of me and my accomplishments and he isn’t afraid to be close to me even when I outshine him. He doesn’t suddenly become “cool” or reserved or withhold affection when I show my intelligence like so many other men have done. I believed you were the second male to value my intelligence, Eric, but I am unsure of that.
“I’m open to stories of when you felt your sexual power was used against you, or resulted in the experience of prejudice.”
Men have been using my sexual drive/power against me forever. They say they want a progressive, sexually mature woman who isn’t afraid to demand what she wants and who initiates sex but the moment I do that, they slink away and withhold sex from me as though to punish me for being that sexually open. I cannot figure them out. Dave (my husband) says it is based on the male fear of not being able to please me or not being able to remain erect. Really? That’s why they withhold sex from me and act almost disgusted at my desire level? The rejection feels as though they are using me to get back at every woman that rejected them. That must be really satisfying for them to shit on me like that. Why don’t they admit to themselves that they are unable to accommodate a sexually powerful woman? Or that they are using me to get back at all the rejecting women?
When I was young and attractive, I was hired for my looks but then fired when I wasn’t willing to flirt with the male boss. I was fired twice for talking about sex openly, the way the men did. They could talk about their exploits all day but when I did the same they got all disgusted and said they didn’t want to hear about my “sordid sex life.” I was not even as graphic in my descriptions as they were but they were not willing to allow me the same, openly sexual freedom they allowed themselves. They called me “slut’ and “whore” and the women were even worse in their disgust and ostracism. In essence, I wasn’t allowed to talk about my sexuality or my desires but the males could and did all the time. Both sexes made me feel bad about being a sexual person.