We have an encore performance from Maria today, but she should be back with a fresh poly/relationship article next week. This article originally posted on Nov. 6, 2011. — Amanda
By Maria Padhila
It’s round about sundown after a hard day’s work, and I’m listening to a nice younger couple talk about dick size. For about an hour. Of course the conversation touches on a dozen topics ranging from gender inequity in dating to the differences between extroverts and introverts in relationships, but the meat of the matter is, well, meat.
It’s the Pedestrian Polyamory Podcast on the Life on the Swingset website, and Shira B. Katz and her husband, Gavin Katz, are talking cocks. Specifically, on this episode, they’re talking about how Shira is a size queen and feels guilty about it, and how Gavin is sizeable (but he’s not bragging, so it ends up just being funny).
She talks about how much she likes that moment with someone new, the “unveiling of the cock.” How interesting it is to slide her hand along his boxers — “and if I’m lucky, it’ll be boxer briefs.” Hey, I wear boxer briefs! I think at this point, somewhat hopefully. And about how she feels guilty at her twinge of disappointment if the member in question is smaller than average.
Through the discussion, she works with Gavin to get to the root of this, and discovers that one component of the disappointment and guilt comes from the fact that her limited experiences with smaller-than-average penises have indeed been disappointing. Not because of the size, but because of how the penis owners handled other situations — for instance, one of them had erectile problems and immediately brought out the “this has never happened before, I can’t understand it” line. As Gavin pointed out, this tactic puts the burden squarely on the partner — it must be something they’re doing wrong.
Shira shares some of the charming qualities of average and smaller cocks. They’re more versatile, “aerodynamic stunt cocks,” lending themselves more easily to anal sex, which more women are increasingly interested in and enjoying (link to article repaired). When Shira describes some of the Cirque du Soleil-style mouth moves possible with a smaller cock, Gavin actually gets a little jealous. So what happens if another lover in the poly group is not similarly endowed? “He’s going to take the ass,” Gavin says. “So we’ve established that.”
Occasionally they get into a sort of Nichols-and-May rhythm, such as when Shira is talking about how her husband doesn’t date much and she goes out all the time: “But I don’t feel like I’m one of those cuckolding wives,” she says.
“Cock-holding?” Gavin asks, somewhat hopefully.
The bigger point here is that they’re talking taboos — and with a frankness and good humor that is not all that pedestrian. They began making the podcasts out of a desire to show “a realistic and normalized viewpoint on polyamory, because truly, after all these years, polyamory is kind of pedestrian,” as it says in their introduction.
So in an interview later, I ask for some pedestrian ideas on technology and scheduling — Google shared calendars get another vote. She says, like me, she has been able to use an email document to defuse a jealousy situation or help hurt feelings: “See, this is the event, and I did invite you to it first, but you said you didn’t want to go, so I went with Other Guy.” It’s strange how perception and memory can change situations if there’s not something in writing, or on the cloud.
They’re also determined to keep their discussions down to earth — “not mixed up with tantra, or tarot cards,” as Shira puts it. In a phone interview later, I asked her why she was hating on the tarot cards, and she took a couple steps back from that. She explains that she just saw lots of writing out there on polyamory that was either by beginners reeling from changes or was theory-heavy work that tangled up relationship issues with spirituality — poly advice, sites, and blogs made from pagan perspectives, for instance. She doesn’t have anything against pagans, or tantra, or tarot — she just wants to put something out there that’s more, well, pedestrian.
“I love pagans, and I think there’s a place in the world for tantra,” she says. “But I was having a hard time finding education and information that wasn’t a mix of things that I don’t want mixed in with my experience of polyamory. There’s not a lot of information for people like me, logical and kind of geeky,” she says. “I like hearing about studies and statistics. I like people to back their shit up.” (True to her word, during the podcast she presents the real numbers she researched regarding penis size.)
I can understand that. I’m a witch myself, and pagans and witches annoy the hell out of me a lot of the time, as do yoga teachers (who I nonetheless respect and obey) and new converts to swinging, and Burners (of which Shira is one; but there’s this British expression, “taking the piss,” and it’s a competitive sport among Burners, so no one gets too puffed up for too long, unless they’re hopelessly thick). It’s about normalizing — she’s out, for instance, to her friends and family, which makes poly more matter-of-fact. (She recognizes, however, that not everyone is able to do that and stresses that coming out must be a personal decision.)
“The one thing I’d like to accomplish with this is to give a significant group of people the idea that you should never default to any particular relationship style. It should be a choice. And that choice can be monogamy. But whatever your choice is, the discussions that occur really will inform you and give you a lot to guide your relationships.”
“I have monogamous straight friends who have never even had a conversation about how it is just to look at someone else, to notice the pretty girl walking down the hall,” Shira says. Getting these things in the open and talking about it can help.
For instance, they also address Gavin’s dating dilemmas, and the fact that she gets screenfuls of messages on OK Cupid as opposed to his few responses. But that’s partly because he’s not putting himself out there, he says. A listener writes in with coherent and helpful dating tips. The show gets a good amount of coherent mail, which can be a rarity for podcasters. “There’s nothing special about what I’m doing; anyone can do it,” Shira says. “But the people who write in and comment, they’re brilliant. They have so much insight.” I think I know how that goes, too.
But Gavin is easygoing about his dating — as he says, “I’m not not dating because of anything you’re doing. It’s because of my own actions.” He also says that on some days, time alone in the house can be more of a pleasure than 10 orgasms, to which I must say “amen.”
During the podcast, Shira throws out a phrase casually, which to me is the crux of polyamory: “I can’t be everything to everyone.” I ask her about this on the phone later.
“I came to this because not only can I not be everything to everyone, I can’t be everything to anyone,” she says. “I don’t want that responsibility, that expectation that I will be their world. And it’s not fair of me to expect anyone to make their world about me.”
“I think you diminish your experience of the world if you narrow in on one person that way.” While she says it’s wonderful to focus in on one person sometimes, she wants to make sure she doesn’t close any doors on experience.
“We don’t know what happens after this, at the end of our breath and heartbeat. I live by the notion that I’m going to live and experience as much as I can in this world, and learn as much as I can.”
Sorry about bad link! Thanks for fixing it, Eric.
There’s also this in the article:
“This is the most uplifting theory. It implies that the sample of women who report regular anal sex is heavily biased toward intimate relationships. The data (Table 4, page 284) strongly support this. Compared with women who are single and dating, women in a relationship are only about 50 percent more likely, at best, to report vaginal sex in the last 90 days. But they’re two to three times more likely to report anal sex. And women who live with their boyfriends are more likely to report anal sex—but not more likely to report vaginal sex—than women who don’t. Anal sex, more so than vaginal sex, seems to correlate with intimacy and commitment. ”
That makes sense to me. :::::grin::::
Of course more women are having anal sex…..not only does it feel good (with the right partner who takes his time) but it is not pregnancy inducing and younger people are less uptight about sex.
It does have a higher risk of transmitting STDs to women unless latex condoms are used every time and don’t break but even with condoms there’s a risk of tearing.
Here is that anal sex-related article from Slate — the link above is bad.
5. Anal sex. Here’s the big story. In 1992, 16 percent of women aged 18-24 said they’d tried anal sex. Now 20 percent of women aged 18-19 say they’ve done it, and by ages 20-24, the number is 40 percent. In 1992, the highest percentage of women in any age group who admitted to anal sex was 33. In 2002, it was 35. Now it’s 46.
The last time I looked at the anal sex data, I figured that most women who reported having done it meant they’d tried it just once. I was wrong. If you push these women beyond the “have you ever” question, the numbers stay surprisingly high, and they’re getting higher. In 1992, the percentage of women in their 20s and 30s who said they’d had anal sex in the past year was around 10 percent. Now that number has doubled to more than 20 percent, and one-third of these women say they’ve done it in the last month. Among all women surveyed, the number who reported anal sex in their most recent sexual encounter was 3 percent to 4 percent.
I would just like reflect that not all men have biological penises, and that not every person with a penis is a man. That is all!
“My best friend’s husband bought her a wonderful, life-like, super-ecological vibrator for her birthday – but he then furtively threw it away…”
I bought myself a realistic dildo about the same size as DH and he has no issues with me using it. As he says, he can’t be there all the time and it makes me less tense. ::::laughing::::
I didn’t want one bigger because as I said, for me bigger hasn’t meant better.
“that men with smaller penises tend to let society rule their egos, which is a serious drag!”
I have to agree and with this as well:
“Also in my experience, larger penises are attached to overinflated egos(most of the time) thus causing an inate reaction to knock the ego down a few pegs taking the intimacy out of the experience, turning it into a power trip…leaving my passion meter empty..more than naught!”
These also apply to the attractiveness of the guy in question. It has been my experience that the more attractive the guy, the worse he is in bed because he relies on his looks and that means he hasn’t developed his character much and his ego gets in the way of serious real pleasure. The average-to-less-attractive guys work so hard on their personalities and efforts to please that they are far better lovers overall. I bet the same could be said of women. Just my experience.
Oooh, great subjects! My experience has been that length is more of an issue than girth when it comes to penises. I had one that was long and thick and it was uncomfortable because of the fit issue; it felt like he was banging my uterus into my neck and stretching me too wide upon first entry. It was uncomfortable for the most part. So I prefer average size (no that’s NOT 6 inches, contrary to popular media).
Too skinny can be an issue because it is more difficult to feel it inside and the thickness does help stimulate me more than the length. That’s because I am not a strictly clit orgasm person; I orgasm just as well with just vaginal stimulation.
Not that I know everything about Gavin’s “dating dilemma” but I do know this: women seem pickier than men when it comes to sex so when you put out a female and a male, the female will get more hits because men seem less picky about who they have sex with. My husband and I have noted that I had 23 sexual partners (DH was number 23) but he only had 9 (I was his number 9). So unless the guy is reeeeally exceptionally sexy looking, he may not get as many hits as even a reasonably attractive and willing (she doesn’t have to be reeeally sexy or attractive looking) woman might. We have seen this in action time and time again. Your experience may vary of course.
I have to comment about the Pagan thing too; I have had an affinity with Pagan and Witch things and beliefs for many years but their….how can I say it? weirdness (and inability to act or think realistically at times) gets to me. I am such an earthy, practical, Virgo Rising with Cappy Moon person that even with a Pisces sun, the new-agey babbling some of the Pagans and Witches I have been around do, drives me crazy. Why can’t they be Pagan or a Witch AND still be practical realists too? I suppose there are some who are but I haven’t met that many in real life (as opposed to online).
Discussing taboo things is great; all of us could do with more of that. DH and I talk about people we see; we both realized we are bi in our sexual outlooks with degrees of difference. I like seeing and touching women but don’t much like being with them (too often they are too catty for me but that’s from my issues with my NPD mother). I won’t comment on DH’s view; he prefers I keep that private (I swear it is that Cappy rising thing of his). Needless to say, we don’t hide it if we think someone is sexy or attractive; neither of us feels threatened by our innate desires for the most part. We have discussed it and both of us feel better when the other is honest about those feelings as opposed to hiding them.
Great topic Maria! I think, like anything else, we tend to over exaggerate penis size as if large is somehow associated with better sex, however I think(in my experience anyway), that men with smaller penises tend to let society rule their egos, which is a serious drag! My passion meter only responds to the exchange of energy regardless of large or small…i do find that smaller can be much more engaging as the skin on skin contact can be much more titalating compared to a larger penis that might need a little more accomodating…positioning..ect! Also in my experience, larger penises are attached to overinflated egos(most of the time) thus causing an inate reaction to knock the ego down a few pegs taking the intimacy out of the experience, turning it into a power trip…leaving my passion meter empty..more than naught! In those cases my pleasure was through the absolute anihilation of this overinflated ego I happened to have shared a sexual experience with…it has lost its flavour at this stage of my life. If I had one wish, it would be that men with small penises realize that they are just as sexy as guys with larger penises.
peace and love
Yes, I agree. Fantastically honest, as always, Maria. My best friend’s husband bought her a wonderful, life-like, super-ecological vibrator for her birthday – but he then furtively threw it away. A bad attack of penis envy?! (I just wish he’d given it to me. What a waste…).
I loved this article! Nothing better than cutting to the – erm – nuts and bolts sometimes. Thank you, Maria. 🙂
this might actually be the funniest lead sentence i’v ever seen in a PW blog post. 🙂
with regard to size, some of the most satisfying fucking i’e ever enjoyed was with a guy who has the smallest cock i’ve ever had sex with. definitely all about how you use it, and the energy awareness behind that. too bad there were so many negatives to that relationship. ah well!