When asked whether he would make public the pictures showing the dead Usama bin Laden, President Obama said in a CBS News interview: “That’s not who we are. We don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. The fact of the matter is that this is someone who is deserving of the justice he received. … We don’t need to spike the football.”
I believe all humans have a penchant for morbid curiosity, and if there’s one thing we can count on, it’s our almost gleeful hunger for the titillation of gawking at pictures of death and violence. After ten years of violent rhetoric, images of war and death in Iraq and Afghanistan, the execution of Saddam Hussein, and now bin Laden dead, are we ready to pack that all up and put it away?
According to CNN, Obama’s choice comes as a poll shows a majority of Americans support making the photographs public. When 700 adults were asked by a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation whether or not the President should make public the photos proving the death of bin Laden, 56% of those asked said yes, the government should release a photo of bin Laden’s body. Another 39% said no. The poll of 700 adults had a sampling margin of 3.5%.
Here is a sampling of opinion about the President’s decision:
“I know bin Laden is dead. But the best way to protect and defend our interests overseas is to prove that fact to the rest of the world,” he said in a written statement. “I’m afraid the decision made today by President Obama will unnecessarily prolong this debate.” – Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-South Carolina).
“I want to see them, personally, I did three tours. I’m not talking as a member of the Armed Services Committee — (but) as a Marine who did three tours because of 9/11. As Americans we deserve to see them.” – Rep. Duncan Hunter, (R-California).
“In my opinion, there’s no end served by releasing a picture of someone who has been killed, and I think there is absolute proof that Osama bin Laden was in fact the person … killed,” Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland).
“I’d let a little time pass so we that we don’t play into the hands of people who want to retaliate with what obviously will be a sensational picture. I would not want to feed that sensation, so I’d wait days or weeks,” Sen. Carl Levin, (D-Michigan).
“Imagine how the American people would react if al Qaeda killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the Internet. Osama bin Laden is not a trophy — he is dead and let’s now focus on continuing the fight until al Qaeda has been eliminated,” Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Michigan and Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman)
“While I have said that a photo release may be a good way to combat the predictable conspiracy theories about bin Laden’s death, this is a decision for the President to make, and I respect his decision,” Rep. Peter King, (R-New York and Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee).
“Obama has not got any strong evidence that can prove his claim over killing of the Sheikh Osama bin Laden,” Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mojahed.
“If it is true, then why they are not showing his body?”
“I believe this is all fake,” one man said. “Wherever he is, he’s alive.”
You know by the article’s title what I think about all of this. What do you think the debate about disclosure is really about? Is it about vengeance? Political maneuvering? Would making the pictures public provide closure, more violence or is it just more pornography?
hi Burning,
I apologize, not feeling v. talkative. but wanted to acknowledge your story.
that’s exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said “come up with something ingenious and nobody would get hurt”. exactly. plus it was nifty you were able to conjure up your namesake in regards to your vision.
Blessings to You on your Journey. I have faith that the waters will clear for you soon if they haven’t already. It’s just a little matter of the mud sinking back down into the earth from which she came.
peace & lots of Love
Sadge, Love your Passion. You can sound like me sometimes when you let loose with the F bombs. You Go Girl. And personally, my heart is warmed by your feedback to me. Very warmed . Beyond words–if you feel something, you are correct, it’s me.
This discusion stirred up the muddy bottom of the river of my long term proximity topotential and actual violence that has dotted the landscape of my life. I want to tell you how I handled one situation where my non-violent, no-aggression philosophy and life was tested: the scene–an enraged large, muscular man is beyond recall in movement to harm a smaller not-yet man. I was witnessing the scene: what to do?: (perhaps a fast prayer for wisdom) –look around–a large expensive picture window, a large heavy chair: “If you touch that person this chair goes through that window.” Said calmly, mouth set, eyes burning. Money talks, when you know how to work it. So, the philospphy and intent are clear: no harm to anyone. But the working out, situation by situation? My trust is that true intent will always open a way.
thanks Fe! leave it to Jon Stewart to tie together the discussion on caskets and this graphic (maybe so, maybe not) photo issue- I guess the tie-together for me is the acknowledgement of the human- the casualties of this ridiculous war (or maybe just Ridiculous War period). villain, hero, veteran, capped passers-by, innocent, civilian, trained professional, journalist, hostage, dude having a cup of coffee, mother, military accident victim, all of them and more…human life. gone. oh right. but I’ve got more gold now, I can (f*ng A, right! ) go upgrade my weapon!
do we even have a clue?
Burning: I appreciate your story; I hear you; you don’t scare me, you are freshly Real. it IS weird to think about our own potential capacity for violence. and we should be a little scared, or maybe Aware is the word I am looking for. I think at least in being Aware one is in a better position to NOT be violent than being clueless or in denial or something. being in denial or just plain ignorance would lend ourselves more prone to “going off” or other unpredictable, violent actions- THAT IS scary!
I mean, even a day or so ago I wrote on here that I couldn’t see myself just sitting idly by if a loved one was being tortured. what that means exactly, I don’t know, since I won’t touch a gun or anything like that, but I might throw a rock. maybe. depends. ((sigh)). I would prob. do something more like sing or something to try and get the attention off of my loved one. maybe I could come up with something ingenious and nobody would get hurt. I would just want to stop it, I would never retaliate against a perpetrator. Pollyanna. and then I think, what if someone was raping me? I surely wouldn’t just sit there. I would get violent, violent enough to get away….
but back to your situation. how awful-I mean imagine the pain/emotions/situation going on that would cause a young person to do that-it’s overwhelming!! ( you know this obviously, I was just working that out live time in the brain) that is a tough situation-no doubt. but I think you’re being a little hard on yourself (wee bit) – the reality is, thank god you didn’t have to kill your parents, and you have the wonderful, wonderful gift of being able to put yourself in another’s shoes, and feel what they might have been going through. there is a lot to that. A Lot of Good. (remember that TED talk? for one, out of like thousands of reasons).
I know what you mean when you say “I know the real enemy”, and there is much truth to that, explained in today’s Fri. edition. however, you’re definitely not My enemy, you’re my Friend. and thanks again for the meaningful chat. Love you. ((((many hugs))))
and yes, thanks Eric for the ethical/moral/truth workout. and the space to work it out in.
peace to Everyone.
A simple google images search under Bin Laden death photo pulls up a photo that looks pretty credible to me. If anyone is so jazzed to see it why don’t they do the same?
I don’t want to see it. I would rather live with the doubt that not seeing it engenders than to have it splashed all over the internet.
If we show it, how are we any different from those terrorists who published the photos of beheading Americans? How are we any different from those terrorists showing photos of dead Americans they murdered? And worst of all, our murdering him unarmed man without even a trial shows our hypocrisy. We claim to be a free and democratic country “with justice for all” yet we murder an unarmed man in cold blood because we believe he was the one who caused the Sept. 11th attacks? Seriously?
So let me get this straight:
we torture prisoners (and brag about it and justify it publicly) even though we have signed an international charter against torture
we invade a country without just cause and kill thousands of their people
we hunt down and murder an unarmed man in another country (invading their sovereign air space) without allowing him a just and fair (read: impartial) trial
and we (the people) now want to parade PICTURES of our perfidy?
What have we become?
I don’t want to see ANY pictures of the murder of Bin Laden. Period.
Fe thanks for opening this debate.
I believe we should see the body. This situation is different from the bodies of soldiers being shipped home from the war or from the stream of disaster ‘porn’ we see on our TVs every single day. This was a mission which was conceived and carried out with the idea of maximum PR and nationalistic brownie points for the Obama administration in mind. We allegedly killed Osama Bin Laden. To then refuse to prove that you have done what you say you have done is nothing more than a prick tease (to carry on the pornography theme).
No matter how he died, Bin Laden was destined to be a martyr. We’ve now made him a supersize martyr, whether we ever see a picture or not. The real ongoing issue for me is that the manner in which this exercise has apparently been carried out challenges all logic and credibility. So much simply does not stack up. Intelligent people are asking intelligent questions to which there are apparently no satisfactory answers.
I think in this debate we are in danger of falling into damaging stereotypes. The people calling for a picture of the body are not snuff porn junkies. In hinting at this stereotype in his rationalisation of his decision, the President is suggesting that only ghouls would want to see the picture, and that we should be ashamed of ourselves for asking. (He is also stereotyping all Muslims as potential terrorists who will use it to feed the flames of hatred). The people demanding to see the body are thoughtful, concerned citizens who smell a lie and are challenging the administration to prove them wrong (maybe even secretly hoping that they can be proven wrong since the alternative is almost too horrible to contemplate).
I am not personally ashamed of wanting to see the photo, assuming it exists. I’d like every person on earth to look at that mangled face and ask serious questions – is this the face of ‘justice’, is it the face of ‘victory’, is the face of ‘peace’?
To me this “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” stuff is just self-justifying nonsense. Obama was damned the moment he supposedly ordered the murder of another human being. So finish the job (and I wonder, these days when a young person dreams of being president is it because it gives them a Godlike power to murder anyone they want to? Is that what the office is about now?).
That’s not who we are? Well, yes it is who we are, apparently.
If I’m wrong then prove it.
Stellium in Sag:
As we shuttle back and forth over the national opinion on whether to show or not – this one is for you:
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/jon-stewart-makes-passionate-case-for-releasing-bin-laden-death-photos-video.php
i think there’s a reasonably easy solution to this terribly difficult question. we have been told that they have video of the entire operation. presumably, then, there exists video of bin laden before he was shot. i think that all the (we?) cynics need is proof that he was there, proof that he was still alive, proof that it is the same man we have seen for all these years and heard the government herald as a demon. if i had reasonable evidence that he was there, i don’t need to see that we killed him. i have no interest in pornography, but after all these years, i honestly don’t know what to believe. my first instinct upon hearing that the body was buried at see was “yeah right, how very fucking convenient”. now, i am coming to believe that all was more as they said. that the man who calls himself bin laden was killed on monday morning. but honestly i have no idea. a recent video, live, even a still from it, would likely satisfy.
Brendan:
I’m with you. I think it would have been way too “Wanted Dead or Alive” as wont the cowboy days of the previous administration, and frankly, I’m not interested in looking at pictures of cadavers. We’ve already had too much disaster porn to last into the next two generations.
I wonder, thinking about the parents, spouses and children of people who were killed in the WTC – did they have closure? Or the parents who have had their wives, husbands, children lost among the 6000 forces killed. Was it like observing the execution of the killer of your loved one? Or how about the civilians in Iraq and AfPak who are in the shooting gallery. Could they really bring themselves to look?
This burial probably had to be a difficult decision to make: whoever they killed, bin Laden or not, there were national and international repercussions. Its good that we are incensed over the war and continued killing. It must stop. However, these wars, long in duration, are like fast moving trains. Its a job to bring these to an immediate halt. More than likely, it will be a draw-down: there are men and women who are still in the danger zone — that includes innocent civilians in the crossfire as well as the troops in harm’s way.
I want the wars over. I have, since the beginning. But, if nothing else, removing the “monster” is only a part of the answer, as Professor Cole indicates in his writings that we posted. The rest comes from the actual people in the line of fire. Its their struggle, and in some cases, victory, that the corrupt governments built by the west that OBL targeted for radical revolution are in the process of ending by the people themselves.
This is what Juan Cole said today about the decision not to reveal the pic:
All the bloodlust over a single picture of a dead man reminds me of trying to placate children who want the monster really truly dead. The monster is still very much alive, as awordedgewise says, only deep inside.
This is from Salon.com as to why OBL was buried at sea:
“The news that Osama bin Laden has been buried at sea is likely to be a talking point in the coming weeks and months. U.S. officials most likely chose a sea burial in order to prevent followers from creating a shrine at the site of the dead terrorist leader’s remains, but a sea burial was probably not the only, or even the first, option explored; CBS is now reporting that Saudi Arabia, bin Laden’s birth country, refused to take his body.
A senior administration official told reporters that U.S. authorities “ensur[ed]” the body was “handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.”
According to Islamic custom, a body should be buried within 24 hours of death. It is normally “obligatory” to bury the body in the ground, but in some situations it is also acceptable to bury it at sea — for example, “if it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs.”
Some radical Muslims have already objected to the method of burial, with one cleric telling AP: “The Americans want to humiliate Muslims through this burial, and I don’t think this is in the interest of the U.S. administration.”
He was a human being. Nefarious or not, he was a human being. I feel SIS really nailed it with cultural observastions of care for body/corpse, and I would add footage of a video of that duly respected body’s burial at sea. According to the polls our society is becoming similar to the jaded Romans that wanted to watch gladiators kill one another and lions rip apart the persona non grata of the day. Perhaps that is all that is understood of closure when fear tells people they have enemies scarier than what can go on in their own hearts (looking at which heart I hate doing, but it keeps coming up for me. Someone I went to grade school and high school with killed his parents when he was in his ( and I was in my) early 20’s. My reaction was utter grief for him and his family, but what scared me was what I could see in my own heart– I realized that if I had been born into his situation I would have had the potential to have done the same thing. Sorry people if I scare you. I scare me sometimes. But knowing the real enemy is me helps me stay practical with my life and is what helps me maintain a little perspective concerning deceased bodies.). Peace to all of us as we hit different levels in ourselves of disbeleif, reaction and consciousness. Thanks for making us keep thinking, Eric.
Clearly, the italics continuing onward betray my lack of clarity in thinking…
=============
Brendan & everyone:
Italics fixed. — fb
I’m not into snuff porn, so I vote no. The years of late have been too full of bodies, of all kinds, and despite his notoriety, a deceased OBL does not warrant a revelation in order to appease anyone. We might as well admit that he was an alien from elsewhere in the universe and his body self-immolated after 24 hours, that’s why there is no photo worth showing. That would get tongues wagging…
At this point, one more body will change no one’s mind anyway. Damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
Done with school for the week, long day, very tired, fuzzy minded.
OK
I’m sorry, but something is really getting to me here. (don’t worry Oracle, I’m cool.)
and that is :
”That’s not who we are. We don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. The fact of the matter is that this is someone who is deserving of the justice he received.”
the President said those words? oh man.
WHY does this remind me of when a moratorium was pronounced on showing the caskets of our veterans coming back fr. Iraq, well, everywhere now, right? I know I know I know, these are two different things, but they are connecting fiercely in my brain. In a fiercely wrong way. can’t connect the dots here yet.
THATS NOT WHO WE ARE? meaning, a psuedo-honorable-and-decent-looking pronouncement, to the tune of something like -that would be indecent- for us to DO such a thing (showing a photo document)
BUT ITS OK to go and murder/assassinate/get rid of someone?
are you fucking kidding me?
like totally sailing right over the more INDECENT of the two issues (murder vs. photo).
geez. let’s not get started on ‘deserving of the justice’. Eric et al. have detailed that one down to the bullshit.
hey, why not, now I am really going to go *off the wall* so warning to readers, you prob. won’t agree with what I am to say, but hey, that’s never stopped me in the past.
In my tiny little mind, I personally think it is COMMON DECENCY to honor the body. everyone’s body. & anyones’ dead body. in any place, time, culture, whatever. COMMON FUCKING DECENCY.
so- let’s just say there is a photo. and they are going to publish it. I would HOPE that that body is wrapped up and/or suitably respected, preferably within the cultural guidelines of the person, but for god’s sake, not just left mangled and torn and splayed out and whathaveyou.
that isn’t right.
that is some karma. your ‘mission’ succeeded, you gunned him down, now don’t leave him or present his picture to the world like roadkill.
that in and of itself is Sick. I just, I can’t even well…[ insert need a big hug here]
this to me, is not a tiny detail. it is a BIG deal. it says a lot. it speaks volumes. volumes.
what, BTW, happened to treat others as you would like to be treated? what happened to that one? too old-school. too simplistic I guess.
but this indecency, this, what is this the “false tough guy” act they are putting on? He (allegedly Osama) was a Really Bad GUY, HE Fucked A lot of (Our) People Up, and F*ng -A, we FUCKING FUCKED HIS SHIT UP, AND YEAH< WE"RE GONNA PISS ON THE CORPSE TOO!!
(sorry Oracle! sheepish face-but I might as well finish…..naomi smile???two??)
k. done. with that.
p.s . I thought the body was supposedly Dumped at Sea??? oh, you mean they took a picture before they dumped it? this is getting ridiculous. they would NOT have dumped that body, either, if you know anything about the military. no way.
There is a credibility question here ‘cuz … seriously, folks … after eight years of George Bush and his Orwellian Bush-speak propaganda and lies, there’s a niggle at the back of yer brain about all this, isn’t there? This is the natural fallout from the Republican quest to kill off government — after years of their tenure, it looks pretty unredeemable and untrustworthy, no matter who’s in charge. I think that’s one of those ‘shadow issues’ Obama has to fight daily.
That said — I read a suggestion from a blogger today that seemed the ultimate solution. The SEALs got video of this so there must be something of Osama ALIVE. They could show us that; no gore yet, even if it’s brief. On the other hand, there will be millions who will consider any image photo-shopped no matter how valid it appears. If OBL’s wife and daughter aren’t believable, what is?
I think Obama’s right to sit this out, personally; we’ve already cheapened our public discourse … but … all those people who would show up in the front row at an execution are the same ones looking for a photo. A CNN poll from yesterday tells us that 62% think Osama’s in Hell — when you’ve got that kind of consciousness, what’s a picture among friends? Oy!
We are all liars so we must be in hell. What is real is not of the world, so this must be hell.
Pix have nothing to do with closure.
Murdering had nothing to do with closure.
People are asking for closure to come from without.
Closure comes from within.