Editor’s note:If you have a question you would like answered and explored in this forum, please email Jan at Drjanseward [at] gmail.com. Letters may be edited for length and clarity. Don’t be shy — we’re enjoying what our readers come up with! — amanda
Dear Jan,
I have been happily married for 24 years to a wonderful loving man. I know I have issues because of my dysfunctional family so maybe you can help me.
Despite my love for him, I often wish I could have another man in my life; one who has the same libido as I do and one who is more open about his affection with me. My husband is really wonderful but he doesn’t examine his feelings much or talk about them much and I miss having someone to talk to about that. I can tell him my feelings but he doesn’t seem to know his feelings so he cannot tell me his.
I also miss having a man desire me as much as I desire him. My husband has desire but he doesn’t show it much and he cannot keep up with me. He acts younger than his age (is open minded and has energy) but he is almost 59 and I am 51 and going through the change. Why do I seem to need more attention and/or sex than he can give? I have lost weight and improved my self a lot this last year but I seem to feel needy and wanting attention that he seems unable to give me. I have wished I could find someone who could complement those parts of me that he can’t, but at my age I still feel unattractive and don’t know if I really want to mess up what I have already.
Is this normal to feel so mixed up, needy, sexual and all that, and what should I do about all these feelings? Is this just my personal dysfunction / self-esteem issue again? I have been to therapy many times but I seem to always end up with a man who has less libido than I, as though I am trading a loving nature for a great sex life.
Please sign me ‘anonymous’.
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for your question, or, rather, questions, because you’ve asked many. To answer, I’m going to use a way of looking at an issue that’s based on “The Work” of Byron Katie, which is based on the work of cognitive psychologist Albert Ellis, who was the original challenger of conscious and unconscious assumptions.
In Katie’s system, the way to look at any issue or suffering we experience is to see it as a story that we tell ourselves, that we think we somehow need in order to live. Unless we question our story, we will use the same narratives over and over again, suffering needlessly and indefinitely, like living in eternal hell. To look at our story, Katie tells us to ask four questions: 1: Is it true? 2: Can you absolutely know it’s true? 3: How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought? 4: Who would you be without the thought?
If we unpack your question, it’s clear that you have a lot of stories. The first is “I know I have issues because of my dysfunctional family”. Is this true? Are you certain that you have issues? Can you absolutely know this is true? Could it also be true that perhaps these are not ‘issues’, but reactions, fears, confusions, or distortions, all of which are available to be examined and changed? Now we ask the question of how do you react, what happens, when you believe the thought that you have a lot of issues because of your dysfunctional family? Does having this thought make you feel that, because you can’t change your family or their dysfunctions, you can’t change your story? Do you feel hopeless and defeated by this? And, finally, who would you be without your thought or your story? If you stopped thinking of yourself as a person with ‘issues’, who would you be?
You also have stories about your husband, so let’s look at one: “My husband has desire but he doesn’t show it much and cannot keep up with me.” Is this true? Can you absolutely know it’s true? Have you tried different approaches toward your sexuality and intimacy? How do you know that your husband has desire if he doesn’t show it much? Does he talk about it? Have you explored ways to turn talk into touch? Does your husband masturbate? Can you masturbate together, or help each other to masturbate? Have you considered using tools or aids, including drugs for erectile dysfunction, to help him to keep up?
How do you feel or react to the story that your husband cannot keep up with you, and without this story, who would you be? If there were new avenues of intimacy in your relationship, how might you be vulnerable in ways you’ve not had to face before? Might it be easier, less frightening, to continue to see your husband as someone who just ‘can’t’? And what would happen if you invited or challenged your husband to answer the four questions about the stories he tells about himself?
Anonymous, the reason to understand our stories is that unless we understand what is lying underneath what we think and believe, we can change a thousand things and the basic story will always stay the same. We can lose weight, get surgically altered, take endless self-improvement classes, or go to therapist after therapist — the results will always be the same. Unless we are willing to see ourselves as separate from our stories, we continue to write the same ending, and it’s never ‘happily ever after’.
With your heartfelt questions, I encourage you to challenge all of your stories: the story that you are needy and wanting too much attention; the stories that you are unattractive, too sexual, mixed up, dysfunctional; and the stories about your husband. These, if allowed to stand unchallenged, will continue to doom him to failure — that he just can’t give you what you want and need. Try challenging the story that you have to trade a loving nature for a great sex life.
Thanks to the readers who have introduced me to The Work. Katie has developed the work of some pretty intellectualized cognitive psychologists into a form that is meaningful and accessible and has helped thousands. You can see her work on the web, and she offers the four questions and ways to do the work for free on her website. Anonymous, let us know how its going when you begin to rewrite your life.
A note to readers: I will be away next week, and my mailbox is hungry! Please send your letters and questions, I look forward to hearing from you.
Blessings,
Jan
Thanks, Alexander–for the book title and your explanation for determining the phase in my natal chart. I’m on it. I read Coyote Medicine quite a few years ago–one scene of a woman sitting in the desert all night staring into the eyes of a snake was riveting. I am so happy to know the doctor has another out–about– of all things– story!! I will be sure to order that tonight also. Thanks, Kat
(((all)))
+_+
“In other words, true healing shapes the service around the unique person – pretend healing fits the unique person into a pre-determined, already-budgeted-for, and centrally authorized framework – with no deviation allowed. The professional is then supervised to ensure they use no creativity or originality but merely conform – all justified on the basis of so-called ‘professional ethics’ there purportedly to ensure there is no ‘malpractice’ (all the while that we are denying the core humanity of the person we are ‘treating’!!! They aren’t helped, regularly hindered/harmed, but professionals keep earning that comfortable salary as they perform like monkeys.)”
Alexander,
You have said what I was thinking; this is why I dislike set prescriptions for self-help. Each person is too unique to just throw a neatly packaged set of tools at them.
For example, at one point (after I had my twins) I went to a (supposedly) Transpersonal Psychology therapist. He was really good but the methods they use were not the best for me because they felt a bit intrusive and the breathwork was not introduced well nor followed up well; these left me feeling worse with no real tools for how to deal with the intense feelings that surfaced. I found out later that the “therapist” was not a licensed one; he was instead a trained breathwork facilitator/practitioner with a master’s degree in math. I am sure his methods may have worked for some but they left me feeling very uncomfortable for a week with no help to process those feelings.
BK’s “work” is a useful tool but not the only one and as such I see it as counterproductive to tell anyone to use it without also presenting other tools along with it. Especially in an article like this which is meant for mass consumption; doing so can lead others to assume that one-size-fits-all in such issues. I think it would have been better to include several tools or options so that anonymous could try different avenues of approach to help her find her answers.
Burning River: Hi!
1) Locate your sun in your natal chart.
2) There will then be 8 * 45 degree steps to complete the cycle.
3) If the moon were within that first 45 degrees of the sun as you move anti-clockwise it would be 1st phase… if the moon is in the next 45 degree section it would be 2nd phase… and so on around the circle!
If you wish to explore further, you really will not regret acquiring Steven Forrest’s ‘the book of the moon’. It is a gem and serves as a great introduction to Evolutionary Astrology to boot!
A few things:
‘Once upon a time’ is not a story; ‘And they all lived happily ever after’ is not a story; ‘I will never get well,’ or, ‘I don’t deserve to be cared for.’ are equally not stories – neither are they ‘subtle’ stories, which is a laughable reverse psychology, to be frank!
Also, one-size-fits-all solutions are all around for people to notice, particularly if one is dealing with the coterie of professionalized disciplines that are protectionist of their own identity markers (and privileges). Within modern bureaucracies we see millions of pounds/dollars thrown at branding exercises and ‘resource’ development – which is subsequently disseminated to every recipient of the ‘packaged’ ‘service’ equally indiscriminately and with no reference to the uniqueness of the person purportedly to benefit from said service. This is perpetrated within systems that have de-skilled their agents from the real skill of using their toolkit to address each person they meet on their own terms.
In other words, true healing shapes the service around the unique person – pretend healing fits the unique person into a pre-determined, already-budgeted-for, and centrally authorised framework – with no devaition allowed. The professional is then supervised to ensure they use no creativity or originality but merely conform – all justified on the basis of so-called ‘professional ethics’ there purportedly to ensure there is no ‘malpractice’ (all the while that we are denying the core humanity of the person we are ‘treating’!!! They aren’t helped, regularly hindered/harmed, but professionals keep earning that comfortable salary as they perform like monkeys.)
To cite some illusory ideal of ‘shared human characteristics’ that are somehow universal for everyone (as a means of circumventing these social facts of modern bureaucracy) is a fudge – the fact that most people have families and that this is a largely universal experience tells us nothing about the internal mechanics of the unique human response to one’s personal configurations of family – such ‘reality’ exists outside of the person; it does not impose upon everybody the same, uniform experience!
There IS a commonality to much of human experience but the point is really not about archetypes of experience but responses to those archetypes – which are always particular.
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Some of you may be interested in another take on “stories.” Dr. Lewis Mehl-Madrona is a half Native American/half white psychiatrist, medical doctor and shaman. He has written several books, but two I highly recommend are “Coyote Medicine” which tells about his journey through and beyond medical school, during which time he also began his development as a shamanic healer. His most recent book, “Narrative Medicine” is brilliant. He approaches stories and beliefs at multiple levels, such as traditional Native American stories he tells his patients that give maps to deep healing. He talks about patients having been told a “bad story” about who they are and who they can become, and the need to be offered, or to find for themselves often through ceremony and ritual, a better story – always truer, to his way of thinking, if it is kind.
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Thanks Kat – I will be ordering this when I get home! – I’ve actually been reading Native American approaches to both Narratives and our place of intersection with them, with regard to the overall ecosystem balance and personal balance in wellbeing and health, on multiple levels for the past week. This route into accessing stories is conducive to the learning of those folk who are utterly absorbed in, yet sick of, the Western mindset (we don’t need to go Eastern!)
Coming back to Byron Katie, it bears repeating that many people may benefit under certain circumstances – to claim otherwise would be to impose our own one-size-fits-all straitjacket. It would appear that if her method is used expertly then it is deploying the consciousness possibilities describe by Eckhart Tolle. One’s deeper self and knowing, coming from beyond-self, has an opportunity to supply different responses than the ones that have become hard-wired in over many years… This is like saying it is a touch like being a cross-section of CBT… performed by God-Self.
The only requirement, as with all therapy, is that it is procured safely and, ethically speaking, with minimum risk of harm through misappropriation and mis-application.
Arguably, Katie’s model should only be used once the ‘helper’ has checked in with the ‘client’ that they are au fait and comfortable with consciousness approaches – and not applied as a straight cognitive theory directly with the aim of challenging suspected faulty beliefs, without preparing the client with both the resilience and technology to rebuild and nourish the self that has had its ‘ancient’ props removed!
Therapy is not simply about correcting or replacing beliefs – to suggest so is to violate human beings and the nature of reality. People require the knowledge of how to own and deploy their personal agency. They need to feel that they have the tools to finish a job started.
You don’t tear a hole in a leaky roof before having the tools and raw materials to fix it! No amount of mantra chant ‘there is no hole in my roof’ is going to protect you from the elements..
darkmary – It was fun to read about your use of EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) http://www.eftuniverse.com I also use it personally and as a therapist. There really is no one size fits all. I referenced that in my last email and withdraw the comment, by the way. In that moment, I was in my own state of experiencing the universality of thoughts not being personal, but was tired and made a poor argument – and there is nothing to argue – there really doesn’t appear to be a one size fits all anything.
Here is one of my favorite misquotes of someone I don’t remember 🙂
If something isn’t paradoxical or ambiguous, it can’t be true. Kat
Some of you may be interested in another take on “stories.” Dr. Lewis Mehl-Madrona is a half Native American/half white psychiatrist, medical doctor and shaman. He has written several books, but two I highly recommend are “Coyote Medicine” which tells about his journey through and beyond medical school, during which time he also began his development as a shamanic healer. His most recent book, “Narrative Medicine” is brilliant. He approaches stories and beliefs at multiple levels, such as traditional Native American stories he tells his patients that give maps to deep healing. He talks about patients having been told a “bad story” about who they are and who they can become, and the need to be offered, or to find for themselves often through ceremony and ritual, a better story – always truer, to his way of thinking, if it is kind. He also understands stories/beliefs in the subtle way that some of you have been talking about in this thread, such as, “I will never get well,” or, “I don’t deserve to be cared for.”
A few years ago, I was honored to share the stage with him before an audience of about 300 mostly Native American professional and community members who wanted to address issues of child sexual abuse in their community. I did a brief introduction to The Work of Byron Katie, and he took the group through a process to encourage community healing. We all shared a belief that if any child is hurt, it means the community around that child needs healing, as well.
This brings to mind something Katie once said regarding how it is our nature to believe our thoughts and to only notice evidence that supports the original belief, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. She noted that children are trained to do this very early and someone said, ‘But, that would mean that children are as guilty as adults.” and she said “No, it means that adults are as innocent as children.” Her point was that thoughts occur – they are not personal – (a Buddhist concept) and that we identify with them, and this is where we find our suffering (not to say suffering is bad or wrong or without value.) As counter to the “one size doesn’t fit all” argument, it may be worth considering that we all may, in fact, share this simple and common reality. Kat
WOW. 38 comments on this thread. Fascinating. I see what I miss when I am on the road.
Alexander- like what you have to say about not losing the aliveness of stories. Thanks. Question: how can I determine which phase the moon is in for the the charts I cast?
Thanks all for EVERY WORD, Love hearing what we think. And just to hear each voice.
(((((all bloggers))))
Hmm… must be an echo in here. I could have sworn that Kat Lyon’s post was farther down in the thread, and now suddenly it is skimming the surface.
I get it: BK and her ‘work’ are for the purpose of amortizing suffering. Which I think is not only impossible, but extremely undesirable. Mostly because of the lengths people go to avoid perfectly interesting and useful suffering. To be in time is to suffer.
I wonder why that is so hard to comprehend?
Go ask Kali. Or any of Her affiliates. She’ll tell you in a heartbeat (after She’s excavated your heart, of course) that to ‘suffer’ means to endure the primordial separation that She has institutionalized here. Kali = kala = time, or a pulse that says ‘not now’ ‘not now’ ‘not now’ – the rhythm upon which 99.999% of human awareness depends.
There’s only one way ‘out’ and it is not on any compass.
M
Thanks, Jan for referencing BK and also for her chart. I plan on spending more time re-reading carefully the discussion thus far, which on first reading was fun and interesting.
I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and have been doing Katie’s inquiry process for several years, and I have benefited from it a great deal. I use it with clients and graduate-level and pre-licensure therapists I supervise, as well as clients, etc. As a therapist, I don’t limit myself to inquiry – it doesn’t appeal to everyone, but I have to say that in over 25 years of counseling practice, it is one of the most useful techniques I have found.
My two cents is that the process is deceptively simple and in my opinion you really have to experience it with an open mind in order to appreciate it. With practice, people can do it on their own (I used it for about a year just from reading the books and experienced significant benefits.) However, being facilitated by others helps a great deal (free on her web site http://www.thework.com).
I went to the Nine Day School in 2008 (on a scholarship -no cost but her trainings are expensive – she donates much of it, I understand.) I recently began her certification program, primarily because it gives me a great structure within which to keep exploring my own beliefs (“stories” and “beliefs” are used synonymously.) I would like to add that while at the school I got to interact with Katie personally. At a distance, she is regular person. Up close, I experienced her as an egoless, spacious, emptiness that felt like love to me. I can’t wait to spend some time with her chart. Kat
PS I will spend five days with her in Dec. and plan on asking if she knows her birth time.
Ya, Mystes, interesting that I found something in that phrase that is describing the source of Orestes’ madness!….? Hm, I’m thinking I was drawn to the imagery of the thrusting of a solid sword into something that is not solid but yielding and that the desired effect of the action was changed and lost its energy? It just made me think that sometimes when we burst forth with an energy but it doesn’t quite meet with what we expect, it can catch us off guard and change our response as a result. I imagined thrusting the sword into the falling water and how it would feel. How that connected to my listening to my music under the wide open night sky this past weekend, I’m thinking, is that in my act of listening I feel it was changed by my surroundings and I heard my music differently. Anyhoo, I’m not sure that explains why i connected the two so it’s best I exit here before I descend into my own madness trying to explain myself…….!
I like how you close with this line: “It’s not hard to see our sanity in Orestes’ (final) madness. “Self-love” as cosmic eraser (and rehearsal of the Real).” Self-love and our expression of that shall surely help us make sense of an increasingly mad, mad world that is in sore need of cosmic erasing.
Onward shall us Goddesses Charge, eh Carrie? 😉
I enjoyed those few lines you shared, so thanks!
Ah, SheBear, darling, I am happy you found grace in the phrase, but it was written to describe the cause of Orestes’ madness – the murder of his mother and his sister’s incestuous longing.
It comes from R. Jeffers’ poem The Tower Beyond Tragedy, and if you have not read it, here is a link to the final scene. I prithee print it out –there are 3 pages to this soliloquy– and read by a dying fire. It contains some of the most splendid writing in the English language.
Orestes: “I left the madness of the house, tonight in the darkness; with you it walks yet. How shall I tell you what I have learned…?”
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It’s not hard to see our sanity in Orestes’ (final) madness. “Self-love” as cosmic eraser (and rehearsal of the Real).
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” it was an exhilarating rush of release to know that I could rest in that feeling of being *in love* with a higher expression of myself and that all in my world just got to feel that wee bit finer. It’s the primary relationship that I am committed to honoring and nurturing above all else because everything I want my life to be right now, all flows from that place of connection.”
I heartily agree; if people don’t love themselves first, how can they feel love in any other relationship? We all have been programmed to find that acceptance and love from another but in truth, if it doesn’t come from ourselves it won’t come at all. This brings to mind the lines from that poem the Pagans sing called “Charge of the Goddess;”
“And you who think to seek for me,
know your seeking and yearning shall avail you not
unless you know the mystery;
that if that which you seek
is not found within you,
you wilt never find it without.”
Perfectly said.
“Plunging your sword into the fountain” — yeah, I really like that notion. Thanks Mystes for including it. It best describes the energy and connection I was feeling these past two nights where I went out onto the third floor deck of this apartment I am staying at and with my headphones on I listened to some music while gazing out at the lights of the city’s night sky, and the backdrop of the moon growing ever fuller. The music came at me randomly and I was enthralled with how the lyrics of each song seemed to echo my communing and my desire to send love out to the cosmos. Yes, yes, yes, in the style of those other Irish lassies Molly&Norah (!), it was an exhilarating rush of release to know that I could rest in that feeling of being *in love* with a higher expression of myself and that all in my world just got to feel that wee bit finer. It’s the primary relationship that I am committed to honouring and nurturing above all else because everything I want my life to be right now, all flows from that place of connection.
If music be the food of love, play on 😉
Sir de Witte, please don’t take my lack of address as ignoring you. I love your commentary. I just feel myself writing alongside of it – like I can look over and see the edge of your shoulder – most of the time.
This… “My view is that ‘truth’, or one’s highest possible integration with transcendent reality, is itself an evolution from/through tensions into constant re-birthing. We do not need to await death for this realisation, in my view.”
…made me smile. Good luck with that. Having woken up a couple of times (hah) and having died a couple of times (I am das log) I have to say: Ego-death and actual, physical death are oceans apart. One is a simulation, hence the ‘constant re-birthing.’
Although I am “back,” I don’t long for extinction – that would be stupid. Here’s the secret: The longing itself is the Beloved, so to move toward it too directly is, as Robinson Jeffers said so beautifully, “Plunging your sword into the fountain” – a kind of incest.
Just keep saying Yes. It sorts itself out, Carrie. Yes. Yes. Yes.
(you don’t have to be Mollie Bloom / Nora Joyce to pull that off…)
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Ego death is a tough prescription, Carrie. Things always look different at the foot of the mountain than at the top.
Ego and surrender of ego are another ‘binary’ that can seem like entrapment – you know, one camp or the other.
Relationship is actually a relatively contemporary phenomenon – a machination of ego-working modalities, that have expanded exponentially since the Industrial Revolution.
Relationship is actually a surrogate for something primordial called ‘Connection’. Relationship is a product of ego in its roots because the other is *conceived* relative to the viewing ‘I’.
Interestingly, recovery of a non-egoic understanding (through not only the cognitive knowledge of connectedness but the practice and orientation of connectedness) is a key resource that can help us cross the Grand Canyon chasm of mystic/mundane.
Now, of course, people still function within relationships and mundane configurations. The questions that occur to egoic mind are ‘what is wrong with this relationship, what deficient?’
The deeper question is ‘do I feel connected to everything? How is my connection to this particular otherness reflecting that or not?’
The world contains people at all levels of conscious awareness. Astrology can help us understand that this should not be a monolith of ‘the less conscious should be becoming more conscious’ – which could be construed as an egoic manifestation – and is common amongst consciousness-orientated folk!
An evolutionary perspective on moon phases shows us eight phases of moon placement with respect to the sun – that are easily paralleled both to earthly and seasonal cycles, as well as the broader human lifecycle.
A first phase (New) Moon will have a differing orientation to an eighth phase, balsamic one! The evolutionary goal for each phase can be considered to be a karmic expression that transcends this particular stretch of mortal time.
This view of ensoulment reflects a metaphysic of the cyclical that is impossible to verify in practice – it differs markedly from the linear (Western) views of time we have inherited.
One benefits from sorting out one’s metaphysical preferences from the symbolic systems that deploy them, so that one can be clear on how one positions oneself.
You may take an evolutionary view of moon phases without believing in reincarnation of souls – but such eclecticism is not suited to everyone.
Many people want consistent, foundational truths about the ‘nature of reality’ to place their full weight upon.
My view is that ‘truth’, or one’s highest possible integration with transcendent reality, is itself an evolution from/through tensions into constant re-birthing. We do not need to await death for this realisation, in my view.
Still, I advocate that the moon phases within astrology offer a very useful 8-fold mapping that helps us move beyond the mystic/mundane bifurcation that plagues the sense of social responsibility and activism of mystical perspectives as much as the ego-identifications and bald pragmatism about this life of mundane perspectives.
There is a scale – and arguably, astrology helps us to make peace with where our current incarnation may find its optimum earthly focus. A fourth phase moon is perhaps least likely to become a mystic – and should perhaps not venture there. Waxing into the light and having moved beyond the realm of archetypes, this moon phase needs to become fully invested in this world.
Moving beyond either/or must involve moving beyond ego/higher self. Otherwise it’s the same old pattern… dressed up!
This is why, at heart, Planet Waves is an astrology resource – a broad roof shelters us all while promoting eclectic input… But astrology arguably offers the broadest possibilities to integrate all of the myriad dichotomies that afflict us within our western soul cages.
Alexander
Honestly, Carrie, I am not a therapist. Nor am I a healer of any stripe. I am not a guru nor a shaman. That said, I *am* interested in how people approach their own suffering, yes.
The contours of each lifetime is precious and monstrous, but we can’t really stand that awareness. It’s too much. However, the one thing I’ve come to understand is that the sudden radiant awareness of pure Being is very particular. Singular even. You can think of it as a comet with a extremely erratic orbit. It flashes through for precise purposes – to nudge things for this birth to happen, or to shut up those mortal enemies, or to turn one leaf mauve – and then, to the brieflings that we are, it’s gone.
We spend an amazing amount of our lifetimes in this semi-conscious nostalgia for that presence. We may turn that longing into religion if we’re inclined to ritual, into psychotherapy if not. Women’s bodies are a unique zone for this nostalgia as we are visibly, palpably dual – and the third space of the Lover gives us a temporary anchor within that constant mediation. But no lover delivers us from it, no child, no family, no art, no work, no ‘project’ (eh, Mr. Jobs?), no river, no moon. There’s absolutely no formula for it, though god-nose we can make a butt-load of money telling people there is.
Now the etiquette of writing dictates that I finish this with some homily about how that presence was never anywhere but within you. Bullshit. The only consolation I can offer is that these lifetimes through which we suffer and love (almost) always resolve in that embrace. The out-breath that doesn’t circle back belongs to the Beloved.
You might think of it as your ‘exheritance.’
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Alexander, Mystes and others,
Having read this discussion regarding Katie’s Work (and the usefulness or not of it in relation to the questions anonymous had in the article above), I wanted to ask (out of my own curiosity):
What would you have answered for anonymous had you the chance?
Each of you has given a reason to question Dr. Seward’s response so I wondered how you would have answered anonymous’ questions?
I also wonder how astrology could help…what chart elements are pertinent in this case?
I am not a therapist or astrologer so I have no idea how to apply either to this scenario. If anonymous were asking me those questions I would just listen and try to offer sympathy and an attentive ear. I guess the most I would be able to do is validate her feelings without offering judgment or solutions. Sometimes that helps.
Alexander, I always have to read your responses about 4 times in order to decipher their meaning! Which is not a criticism, by the way – I just think you are very skilled at putting words to what I personally take as truth, without knowing why or how I arrived at that truth. (Note, when I say truth, I mean MY truth, not absolute truth!)
What I think you are saying about story is that we bring cultural baggage to them (certainly perpetuated by mass media in the last 50-60 years) which means we are automatically suspicious of their autheniticy and their right to ‘be’. Of course, you could trace this all the way back to how stories have been used for control purposes in mythology and religion (ooops, have I just opened another can of worms??), but primarily stories have been used over millennia as healing tools, as Sam referred to with Fritz Perls’ work. Enactment has long been a way of releasing stuck energy. While Gestalt therapy is a relatively new addition to the therapeutic arsenal, its roots go way back to hunters re-enacting hunts and reliving the adrenaline rush and the fear of the kill.
I think stories will always have ‘window dressing’ attached to them, as we are emotional beings with a well-developed limbic system. The window dressing is an integral part of story telling – how many of us are able to engage with a story that has no expression of the story-teller’s emotion? I’m reminded of what a tantric guru once said to me – ‘Include everything. Don’t leave anything out’. The healing power of stories is in the inclusion of everything that the storyteller is: their experience, their way of processing their experience through emotion and logic – ALL WITHOUT JUDGEMENT.
To me, the fallacy in The Work is that, regardless of whether this is what KB intended, it’s interpreted by some that we have to EXCLUDE parts of ourselves that we don’t like. Which is why I like to consider the usefulness of the story to me, rather than whether I should believe it or not. There are no shoulds or shouldn’ts! It just is. I am very wary of modern psychology precisely because it seeks to pathologise a huge spectrum of human being.
#4: It is impossible to exclude suffering from the sentient experience. I had a long commune today with a pecan tree that had been wantonly hacked down – it was one of the few that survived the drought. It was in agony and yet joyful to have existed at all. To *be in time* is a state of vulnerability, and we are all equally subject to its caprices. You can accept that or you can strive for oblivion.
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I am currently undergoing visitation from a Sparrowhawk. A faithful guide…
Our collective relationship to earth/Gaia and our understanding of its sentience and relationship to the wellbeing of everything is paramount.
The Pecan Tree had been wantonly hacked down. It was in agony but shared no retributive energy; it was simply joyful to have existed at all. Mystes communed with that tree.
As an aside, I have a love of communing with Hoverflies.
What a beautiful basis for a poignant, healing story, Mystes – ‘The Tale of the Pecan Tree’
Thank you!
Alexander
#1: Sam, Hear-hear.
#2: When KB declared that a person can’t really connect with another, only with their images of another, I thought only a terminal narcissist would believe this. And then I wondered how many ice queenlettes would gravitate to this Empress of Ice Cream. (apologies to Wallace Stevens)
#3: It doesn’t matter how much peace you make with your demons while studiously pursuing one healing modality or another. What matters is what you do on the front lines, in the stabbing fury. Out beyond overwhelm you discover something real about who you have become – be it suddenly having to help someone deliver a baby or quoting Leonard Cohen to the Rotarians.
#4: It is impossible to exclude suffering from the sentient experience. I had a long commune today with a pecan tree that had been wantonly hacked down – it was one of the few that survived the drought. It was in agony and yet joyful to have existed at all. To *be in time* is a state of vulnerability, and we are all equally subject to its caprices. You can accept that or you can strive for oblivion. (See #2)
Also, I always thought The Four Questions were:
1. Why is this night different from all other nights?
2. Why is it that on all other nights we eat leavened bread but on tonight we eat only matza?
3. Why is it that on all other nights we eat many kinds of herbs but tonight we eat only bitter herbs?
4. Why is it that on all other nights we do not dip our herbs in saltwater but tonight we dip them twice?
5. Why is it that on all other nights we do not eat in a reclining position but that tonight we are reclining?
“‘I can’t survive this’ is NOT a story, as I mentioned. It IS a belief – and one grounded in emotional overwhelm/overload. Anyone would feel they couldn’t cope after that experience – that is normal by the way, NOT pathological. And this is another real problem of the approach of Katie’s model (if it is not practiced with skill); it may pathologise the natural reaction – which makes things worse and blocks the compassion required for healing, producing more shame instead.”
I agree with this bit from Alex.
Also I once looked at this Katie person’s website for about five minutes and that was enough. I don’t like the look in her eyes. And I think that there really is an issue of trying to make a buck selling something that is simply not appropriate for mass consumption. Contrast what she’s selling with the level of detail, relative personalization, and overall groundedness of what Eric Francis is selling…
It seems like one of the major issues with Freudian analysis is that it expects that a revelation of core trauma (the knowledge of the specifics of that trauma) will lead to healing. This Byron Katie pop therapy actually runs a similar risk, which is something that I believe Alex mentions earlier too — that in fact we can’t just logically argue away trauma, because it exists on a physical level as well as an emotional and mental level.
And I agree that there is a bit of a bait and switch in this Katie product, which is that a warm fuzzy liberal set of beliefs seems to be embedded in the program, which will then take over the vacuum left over once the original “story” is discarded. And I think maybe Alex is also objecting to this — that in fact it doesn’t empower the patient/customer to comprehend their psychic mechanics, nor do they learn how to provide nutrients (thanks for the word Eric) to the parts of themselves that had a natural reaction to pain and suffering. I too am aghast at the notion of arguing with someone that their traumatic past experiences influencing their present isn’t logical. Actually I think Fritz Perls also engages in a bit of this, but in a much much more embodied way. He doesn’t want people to turn off the feelings, rather to complete the story, to enact the story, so that they can free up their energy to author new stories.
would you say that it’s the matrix of assumptions and messages that have grown out of personal/familial history and cultural context that interweave in ways that might qualify for the term “story” or “narrative?”
as in, “i am fat because my mother made me feel guilty about leaving food on the plate because we were poor, and my uncle molested me, so i didn’t want to look pretty, and now that i’m an adult and am fat i must not be pretty, so therefore no one will want to love me or touch me, and that’s why no would would ever want to dance with me so i might as well not even try to learn to dance, but that’s ok because i don’t really deserve to be touched or loved because i’ve been such an awful person and have such a negative attitude…”
is that what you mean by “story?”
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Hi Amanda!
First person monologues are clearly often seen in stories, often deployed when the protagonist is being portrayed as in doubt or conflicted in some way – it’s like some internal review protocol, setting the scene for possible action(s) or decisive change.
Review before decision-making is an interesting way to validate what might otherwise be classified as a sterile or toxic process. It is almost like an internal dramatization detox. Akin to ‘I had thought this, this had been my understanding, but, looking back, I now see such and such’.
The Harrison Ford Voice Over on Ridley Scott’s Blade Runner (not present in the Director’s Cut) is a good example of this – although to be fair, this was not simply self-evaluative but also comment on others and the broad situation (therefore putting self, actions and judgments in a broader contextual framework) or story arc.
So yes you could call it a story – but the whole of story approaches is far greater than that particular manifestation; which can become melancholic and self-pitying.
In the baldest sense, any story is a description of ‘what happened’ the rest is a form of window dressing for effect upon the reader/viewer. Impact is important if one is relaying/performing one’s story but, if it is a personal narrative account that one is addressing in order to find liberation, such window dressing is likely a mistaken dramatization:
So, say… ‘The Physics Teacher (Lee was his name) had thick-rimmed spectacles and the thick lenses made his eyes look beady. His desk was like a preacher’s pulpit, central and elevated above the desks of the children. It was one afternoon, as I remember, that the other kids were crowding me – noisy, heckling and boisterous. Surely he knew what was going on? It was the front row for Christ’s sake! Still the bastard hated me and clearly took delight that the mob surrounding me first teased, then taunted, and finally baited me into to the violent act. As, having had my name called, I turned, only to be struck over the head with Gill’s light Green Umbrella. He let it happen – that fucking pedophile.’
Here the window dressing is strong, pent-up feelings. One can rightly ask whether those feelings are part of the story.
The answer is both Yes and No. Yet, these emotions need to be owned so that they can be processed. Arguably however, these strong emotions can serve to block the telling of the story due to overwhelm. They are a part of the complete picture, but the therapeutic benefit to be found in telling and then reviewing the whole story (in order to understand its broad sweep) will likely be lost if the emotion is florid through the telling of it.
The story is really, in effect, WHAT happened. The healthy evaluation and processing of it come after the completed dispassionate picture – that way, the disowned aspects of self can surface and be made peace with.
If the emotion is engaged all the way through the telling then the story will always remain an emotional one – a largely toxic one at that, where I cannot see my part but only what happened to me – the VICTIM.
The story has both objective and subjective components. Part of the whole problem with the implementation of Katie’s piece and several of the responses on the thread is that the subjective aspect of story is in view straight away but then obviously is already cast in a negative light (because it is this ‘negative’ pain that we are attempting to eradicate). Then, the belief challenging aspect kicks in to correct this feeling-tone of the narrative (which is inevitably something which questions the person’s entrenched viewpoint) but that is not ‘the story’ per se, rather the impact aspect, the dramatic dimension.
To produce low arousal is one of the key ways of processing healthily in many prominent therapies (that’s why hypnotherapy has notable successes – because it allows the brain to become de-sensitized to emotional charge).
When we confuse the material to be healed with the essence of the story we are immediately cutting off the low arousal benefits.
If Byron Katie or a skilled practitioner uses the modality in an appropriate way then we don’t need to get hung up on semantics, as you rightly hint at. But in self-help mode, not used in conjunction with other approaches, or thrown around as some blanket prescription for any issue, we face consequences – not least the perpetuating of a huge cultural blindspot in the Western cultures (ably abetted by the media in all its manifestations) that story=fiction or untruth or fantasy or lies. Myth and legend do only slightly better than story but are afflicted similarly. We are supposed to find hidden or metaphorical or allegorical truths that we can deploy in our literal worlds.
We rape story for content that we can use to support other narratives about how the world is or is supposed to be. And we know how distorted those media-perpetuated ‘truths’ and ‘facts’ are.
Story just is. It has great potential for anchoring our identities upon the current maelstroms of swirling ocean chaos.
Story is not just how you attribute it – it is what we can create afresh every day. It is positive and life-giving and enriching… if we allow it to be!
Hi Alexander,
“In my view this topic is a minefield – especially as we see it here applied to a situated life. Although I’ve only had limited exposure to this ‘model’ there are considerable difficulties with it.”
May I suggest you broaden your exposure to this model. Using this model has only helped me see very clearly the difference between reality( what happened) and what I think or tell myself about what happened.
“Why should we find liberation? Because we get to see clearly (or should) that story is neither true nor false – it just IS. More than this, narrative/story assists us in retrieving the kernel of value in the true/false dichotomy (that has become toxic in so many ways).”
For me this is exactly what ‘The Work’ produces. I don’t believe our thoughts are true or false, just an overlay of reality. It is true, that I was abused as a child. I don’t deny that reality, but instead, look at what I thought that meant. What I came to discover through doing the work was that that truth did not mean I wasn’t loved, wanted or lovable. How do I know I am loved and wanted and lovable? I am here, loving and being loved. That is my reality. Mother may or may not have wanted me- by all indications, she didn’t- but the universe seemed to think I was necessary based on the fact that I am here.
I actually dove back into ‘The Work’ after Dr. Jan answered a letter a couple of weeks ago that started the conversation about finding “The One”.
After all the varied responses and my own, I began to question my thoughts about relationships more deeply than I ever have. I found a lot of neediness and insecurity and that there was a part of me still wanting validation from ‘Other’ for my existence. Eric, I am eternally grateful to you for continuously bringing this topic up. When I got down to the bottom of it I found what I really had was a perfect relationship with myself and I am sitting with that in peace. I will not add another at the expense of my primary relationship and the work keeps me honest in that respect. I am also open to new experiences as I see relationship in a much broader context.
The most helpful thing I have received from Byron Katie is, “A dishonest yes is a no to yourself” Finding out what is honest for me is now as simple as going inside and getting still, slowing down and giving myself a chance to respond from a place that is true for me.
I have found so much liberation and forgiveness, words cannot even begin to express it all. To find peace about something that troubled me and followed me through all my relationships for years is something truly precious.
Darkmary,
” My experience has been nothing but finally feeling some compassion for the parts of myself that have either needed to perpetuate certain stories or have not been able to see through the solidity of the story. From that deep sense of self-acceptance and self-love, I have been able to begin to release some long-held damaging stories.”
Yes Darkmary, this has been my experience as well. I have become very flexible and actually curious about all my thoughts and they have become great friends and teachers.
Thanks for the space to share.
Caroline
so alexander, is part of your point that if jan had simply used the term “beliefs” in each instance where she wrote “stories,” then the whole conversation would be on more solid ground?
obviously you are addressing much more than this in terms of the effectiveness of therapy models.
but i’m trying to get a handle on how much the problem is the use of the word “stories” in a way that might not be accurate. especially since, in the CBT model you share, i would agree that “i am fat” is not a story.
but, would you say that it’s the matrix of assumptions and messages that have grown out of personal/familial history and cultural context that interweave in ways that might qualify for the term “story” or “narrative?”
as in, “i am fat because my mother made me feel guilty about leaving food on the plate because we were poor, and my uncle molested me, so i didn’t want to look pretty, and now that i’m an adult and am fat i must not be pretty, so therefore no one will want to love me or touch me, and that’s why no would would ever want to dance with me so i might as well not even try to learn to dance, but that’s ok because i don’t really deserve to be touched or loved because i’ve been such an awful person and have such a negative attitude…”
is that what you mean by “story?”
or are you getting at some form of even more complex and rich narrative?
thanks!
🙂
Hello darkmary. I just wrote an expansive reply and deleted it with a finger slip. The pain was intense at my loss because I crafted it lovingly. But I quickly realised that that is a metaphor of life.
Hopefully this draft will not be PhD length!
I think both Musicman 1 and Lula have made exemplary points. Both showed how partial models, applied with determination and compassion, can work.
My concern is not with what works but what doesn’t. Unquestionably, Katie’s model can and does work for a number of people.
However, it is not possible for a one-size-fits-all package to be the panacea that may be claimed for it. You know, different therapies work differently with different folk. Any ‘theory of everything’ type solution cannot meet the unique individual in advance and assess their situation with its nuances. Once you get ‘total solutions’ packaged as a number of simple steps (in this case 4 key questions) and based on adapting models like CBT and creating a ‘hybrid’ with a concept of story – that is impoverished then you have ingredients for a marketer’s dream.
So there will be an evidence base. Once the basic cognition/effect/belief triad is mapped it becomes possible to untangle it. The CBT model (I agree both with your assertion that Katie’s is not quite the same and has certain benefits over bald CBT) is based upon a mapping of internal processes that is nonetheless not grounded in the most up-to-date brain science – which shows that affect precedes cognition, not the other way round like CBT would have us believe. (For more on this Google Griffin and Tyrell and The Human Givens).
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In my case, just one of the ‘stories’ I told myself about being held hostage was ‘I can’t survive this.’ That story helped perpetuate the trauma including night time anxiety and terror as well as a state of near-constant adrenalin rush until I became so ill that my body could hardly produce cortisol or adrenaline.
—————————————
I believe that Lula demonstrated clearly the correct way to apply CBT-type questions.
I do appreciate what you say, by the way, about the adrenal burnout of extended fight or flight switch-on and the cortisol issues. The impact upon physical health is just not factored in at all in the biomedical model we usually encounter. We need both a biopsychosocial model and complementary approaches that treat the broad problem – and just the traditional atomizing of the mind we find in traditional psychological therapies!
Still, my concern is with ‘story’
‘I can’t survive this’ is NOT a story – unless, that is, one is wishing to reduce to story merely negative fragments. You see the cultural blindspot we have inherited?
A story is fiction at best, untruth, lies at worst.
Let’s take a scenario like CBT:
“I am fat”
We challenge that belief “That is FALSE you are NOT fat”
“Oh my God, I must be THIN”
Again we challenge “No you are not THIN”
“So what am I then?”
“You are NORMAL”
“Oh my God I’m normal, I don’t stand out in any way!”
I appreciate this is slight parody but it illustrates the point well of affect driving things rather than cognition, in terms of many beliefs in place.
It is the self-blame and loathing that is driving things not some logical propositions, based upon factual falsehoods that can be got at and corrected and boom!! Healing..
This is why impoverished stories are a problem.
‘I can’t survive this’ is NOT a story, as I mentioned. It IS a belief – and one grounded in emotional overwhelm/overload. Anyone would feel they couldn’t cope after that experience – that is normal by the way, NOT pathological. And this is another real problem of the approach of Katie’s model (if it is not practiced with skill); it may pathologise the natural reaction – which makes things worse and blocks the compassion required for healing, producing more shame instead.
Stories are multi-layered, involved many characters and scenarios. They don’t shut down or reduce possibilities but are open-ended an expansive when working at their best.
People are not only usually the protagonist in their own story but can be shown that they are the author too and can take their story in new directions.
If I were practicing Katie’s method as applied to some folk’s beliefs about story then I’d be identifying their belief as a faulty belief. We need to retrieve the vitality and power of stories. This is an urgent requirement in our society.
I do not take issue with a limited scope for Katie’s model to help some folk (because based upon a map that has long been known) but it cannot work as a one-size-fits-all. This suggestion is harmful and could have harmful effects upon real people – who are ALL unique.
More to the point, any system that reduces ‘story’ to fiction at best; lies at worst is doing a great disservice to one of our most healing resources – one we need to rediscover in our therapeutic dealings with others – therapists or not!
Oops. It is late. I am tired and read quickly. Just re-read. I don’t think you said you were a therapist, Alexander. Sorry for my assumption. Hope my comments are still of some value.
Great conversation. Thanks Jan and all. Alexander, I agree that we shouldn’t throw the baby (story lines) out with the bath water. I’ve only been practicing The Work for a year now, but never once did I feel the goal of The Work was to throw out my story line. What the technique has helped me do is see through the solidity of the stories I am telling myself. In my experience, story is a function of ego. Ego helps us navigate the world; it rarely helps us awaken or transcend suffering (at least until we know how to harness it in service to awakening.) But still it serves a crucial function.
I want to ask you a few of questions and challenge a few of your assumptions. *Who* do you think is purporting The Work to be “a methodology that liberates everyone in simple steps?” *Who* do you think is saying it is one size fits all? *Who* do you think is applying it indiscriminately? And, finally, why do you think it to be “about market forces and that will always mirror one-size-fits-all packaging that has, typically, high profit potential for the seller once the central hub is established?”
Maybe Katie is making some money off of her School for the Work. It is pretty pricey. But it is not like she is running a franchise. And, in my opinion, one of the great things about The Work is that there a number of practitioners who offer their services for free as they are training in the technique. What I have personally experienced as a powerfully healing technique/tool is being used in a grass-roots way. In my opinion, that is a positive thing, unless if you want to perpetuate the paradigm that only a licensed therapist or psychologist knows how to bring about healing. And, forgive me–this is not directed at you personally–but if you want to get onto the subject of high profit potential, what about licensed MSWs, psychologists, and psychiatrists who are ‘professional’ therapists and are completely tied into the health insurance system? So many therapists won’t even see clients who aren’t insured or who can’t pay–what is the going rate now–$150 to $200 for a 50 minute hour?
Changing subjects, I really get your point of nature abhoring a vacuum. And if we try to take away someone’s reality (the reality of, say, having been victimized, or of any particular story that defines us) that can precipitate an implosion. And, hopefully, *any* skilled therapist will honor a client’s resistance. Our resistance to change (and the story lines we perpetuate in order to fortify that resistance) serves us well in many cases. Until it doesn’t. But my experience of The Work is that it is so gentle that there is a lot of room to hold on to the story line if one needs to. My experience has been nothing but finally feeling some compassion for the parts of myself that have either needed to perpetuate certain stories or have not been able to see through the solidity of the story. From that deep sense of self-acceptance and self-love, I have been able to begin to release some long-held damaging stories.
I am not sure that The Work can’t be used in cases of extreme trauma. I am not saying to use it indiscriminately, but in my life, I wish I would have known of this technique long ago. I would like to give you a personal example. Years ago when a stranger broke into my home and held my partner and I at gunpoint for 8 hours I suffered serious symptoms of PTSD. Traditional psychotherapy served only to reinforce those symptoms. I dearly wish I would have known about and could have practiced The Work as a way to heal from what happened.
Let me put it this way: There is pain and then there is suffering. When we experience a trauma, there is the initial pain of whatever the trauma entails–whether that is physical injury or sexual/emotional/spiritual violation. And then there is the story line we create around the pain that may or may not perpetuate the pain (i.e., the suffering.) In my case, just one of the ‘stories’ I told myself about being held hostage was ‘I can’t survive this.’ That story helped perpetuate the trauma including night time anxiety and terror as well as a state of near-constant adrenalin rush until I became so ill that my body could hardly produce cortisol or adrenaline. Years later, a naturopath told me that he had never seen anyone with such a low cortisol output. “You are like a walking dead person,” he said. In spite of the fact that I had, indeed, survived the break-in and being held hostage at gunpoint, I believed the story that I couldn’t survive the break in.
In trying to heal I worked with a therapist with a lot of experience working with trauma survivors and I also took an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety. Both of those modalities were harmful to me. It was EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) that helped me finally settle my nervous system and begin healing. This past year I finally laid the final ghosts to rest practicing The Work.
Finally, I am not sure if some here are classifying The Work as CBT. In my experience, The Work is not CBT and the process of asking the deceptively simply four questions actually short-circuits the conceptual mind so that one is simply left with the awareness of experience and energy. And that is what makes it so effective.
Sorry for the lengthy monologue and no personal offense intended Alexander. I’m sure you are compassionate and skilled therapist. I so value your contributions to PW. But I felt it was important to challenge your assumptions, in particular, because some people still put a lot of weight on the opinion of an ‘authority’ and the truth is, when it comes to our emotional and spiritual healing, we are each our own authority.
Namaste.
hello All!
interesting discussion- personally I find it almost impossible to try and answer the question “is it True” from purely the standpoint/level of the Mind.
this is prob. one of my “semantics” moments, but the use of specific language is crucial, IMO.
words have Power.
and that’s all I’m gonna say about *that* (except using the term I AM in the evolved way is a recognition, a potent realization that you & All are One- had to say that..: D ) .
Lula- like your last paragraph, part. the last lines, ha ha . yeah. maybe for others that seems inconsistent, but if you are a living, breathing, constantly growing being, hopefully you are always taking in and assimilating, experimenting with information ya know?
of course this means taking in things like Naomi on Dem. Now (which was excellent!) to having your own discourse by exploring your world, being curious (ha!), adventurous, courageous, whathaveyou. that’s why honoring my own intuition, which is strong, and interacting with Nature for example, Knowing in Other Ways than just logical/ thinking is crucial, crucial to me.
not to mention connecting with the Heart. the Heart Knows Legions. (speaking of which: Regulus in Virgo?-holla!)
Carrie: stone by stone gurlll!!! you know it!
peace ya’ll
oh useful conversation, everyone. thank you. Thanks Jan for opening the door on this thing called The Work and the conversation.
Alexander, I LOVEd this (following) para of yours – especially the phrase “naval-gazing”! LOL — one of the things that pissed me off the most when I was trying out some therapy was the therapist’s constant getting annoyed with me because I would come back into my head instead of staying down in said belly-button for extended periods of time. Really? The whole point was to get OUT of said fricking belly button!! – and remember that the world is safe and loving….:)
Here’s the repeat of the para I enjoyed — “Actually, this is where Astrology can provide much needed frames of reference. It offers a Cosmic Arc to the story line – one that is able to intersect with the mundane and interior aspects of experience. It has the potential to take us OUT of ourselves and our navel-gazing and to connect our ‘disconnected’ narrative to other narratives. It helps us to look in a metaphorical mirror by which we learn not how the other is different to me (with all the angst that procures) but how they are *like* me (with all the compassionate energy that releases).”
Lula,
I cannot take credit for the term; I saw it on an ACORN support site. I love it too.
@Carrie – Fleas! That’s brilliant! So apt! Must remember that one 😀
Thank you Jan,
Doing the work has had a most profound effect on my life. I have been doing The Work for about four years. I was able to move through some deep childhood trauma and receive beautiful and lasting healing with it last summer. I will be forever grateful for these four simple questions and the turn arounds. I highly recommend, ‘ I need your Love, is That True?’ by Byron Katie as well. I just finished listening to it for the third or fourth time today.
One of the things I noticed was how much of a victim mentality I had and how I operated from that space in all my relationships. I also noticed how much pressure I put on others to fulfill my wants and needs. The beauty of the work is there is no dogma, it’s just sitting with these questions and making the space to allow the answers to arise
from a still place. This is how I learned to be honest with myself and it has been a fearsome and humbling ride. To not live in fear and anxiety after nearly 45 years is a wonderful thing.
Peace, Caroline
Lula,
Thank you for posting; you said what I am thinking so well! That is exactly how I think Katie’s system can be used.
I also came from a dysfunctional family but I think of that as the foundation of my self-house; it sucks but I can remake my self house by digging into that foundation stone by stone and replacing it with my OWN foundation based on my own inner self worth.
Another way of putting it is how some adult children of narcissists (ACORNs) say it; as they grew up under the abuse of the NPD parent/s’ dysfunction, they got messed up but even as they recover in adulthood, they often have small behaviors which linger and cause issues with them and in their life relationships (family, kids, partner, job, friends). These small, lingering behaviors are called “fleas” because they have jumped on from the NPD parent and can still cause issues. So when the ACORN says they come from a dysfunctional home, they are referring to those lingering fleas they are working on; they know they are there and that these affect them but they are working on eradicating the behaviors. I know that when I refer to myself as coming from a messed up family, that’s how I am looking at it. Does that make sense? We cannot know if that is what anonymous meant but it is a possibility.
“Once we use language in terms of “We tell ourselves stories” what are we saying about those stories? In what light are they being cast? Hardly a positive light from what I see. In fact, we aren’t far from seeing the word ‘story’ being used as if it were actually a euphemism for a ‘lie’.
I help people re-frame their narratives every day in my job. All stories are not fairy tales. Not all stories are fictional accounts. The word ‘story’ is somewhat in disrepute.
I think we need to put that right.”
Alexander,
Thank you for clarifying for me. I have to say I agree with what you are saying and most especially with that part I cut & pasted above.
I am not a professional therapist or anything close; I just know what I have experienced in my own life and so far, one-size-fits-all hasn’t worked for me.
hey alexander —
i’m hoping to find the time to consider a bit more closely what you’re saying in your two comments. certainly when i came up with a title for jan’s piece, i had no intention of miscasting narratives/stories as lies or anything misleading.
rather, i find narrative and the concept of ‘story’ to be incredible useful and necessary to being human and healthy. it’s a pretty involved conversation. to me the question is about recognizing the unconscious self-narratives that fly in under the radar, influencing our decisions and behavior in ways we are not aware of — and which (in the cases i’m referring to) repeatedly cause us unwanted pain. once narratives are conscious, that does not make necessarily them true or false, useful or harmful. it seems to me they can and do evolve if we want them to.
i’m not an expert in katie’s work by any means; i don’t have a good grasp on how it might be dangerous or unproductive in complex situations (like addressing trauma). but i have mentioned it in a couple of the Daily Astrology posts because my limited experience with it has been useful and illuminating. in those cases, it was suggested & practiced in a fairly specific situation, to address stressful but non-traumatic thoughts.
mainly, i’ve encountered it in a dance context, specifically contact improv. in that case, a dance workshop leader named neige christiansen uses katie’s four questions, and the basic principles of dance therapy, to “address any inhibiting or stressful thoughts and beliefs that may be blocking the flow of your dance.” She writes, “Investigating these thoughts can significantly shift your ability to be truly present in your dance, open and available to whatever it becomes, without attachment to its outcome.”
that is, the four questions seemed quite applicable when experiencing some form of limiting “should” train of thought; e.g., “he should be dancing with me right now – we have more suitable styles”; “she should listen more to what i am doing as we dance”; or other judgments, like “no one is making eye contact with me as we warm up; these dancers must be snobs.”
anyway, what i liked about using the four questions in that situation was that it was an avenue to move *away* from blame of self and others, rather than compound it, while still taking responsibility for self, and then offers in the fourth question a way to feel around for several potentially true narratives that allow self and other (or situation) to coexist with far less pain and stress — and allows an improvisational dance to flow & the dancer to be present and open and authentic.
but, as i said, i had not considered the potential pitfalls to extrapolating the method to far more complex, entrenched or traumatic therapy situations. that said, clearly something like contact improv has the potential to trigger such deeper things in people. but when that happens, i would say that the dance floor is a valuable place to gather info, but is not a suitable place to work with it, and lacks the needed tools for deeper therapeutic work. (unless, perhaps, we are talking about dance therapy specifically, which i am not, since it is not a realm in which i have experience).
Hi Carrie,
What I am saying is that a fixed method of applying a consistent 4 questions to a simplistic notion of story that purportedly becomes a methodology that liberates everyone in simple steps and becomes associated with self-help in a web-disseminated movement will (leaving aside questions of any merit) be about market forces and that will always mirror one-size-fits-all packaging that has, typically, high profit potential for the seller once the central hub is established.
Remember “Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway”? Some very useful insights in there but whenever these things become prescriptions, regardless of who uses/wields them, we inherit problems of oversimplification that the recipient, in self-help mode, is rarely qualified to discern and work with. They internalize mantras without understanding mechanics – fine while the mantras get a felt result..
Indeed, one of the unfortunate consequences of the Katie model applied indiscriminately (particularly with trauma victims) can be the invalidating of their narrative.
“You cling to a belief that someone will abuse you in the future because a different person abused you in the past” would amount to being a false belief in such CBT systems. That is a ludicrous and harmful suggestion.
We need to teach people technologies of interpersonal and social navigation, particularly in terms of self-regulation, not simply to change their beliefs. A belief has a history – and that is correlated to the whole of the life and the whole of experience in many cases. The ‘belief’ (because that is what is from the therapist using the method in certain ways) that identifying a ‘faulty’ belief (in the person who is somehow ill) and removing it, will lead to immediate health-giving vitality and not create the risk of an implosion, is highly questionable.
Nature abhors a vacuum! My main concern is really that narrative gets simplistically grafted into CBT modality. That is a shame because the whole point about stories is that they can operate on so many different levels (which is the therapeutic unction latent to them) in giving people scope to rework their own metanarrative.
Once we use language in terms of “We tell ourselves stories” what are we saying about those stories? In what light are they being cast? Hardly a positive light from what I see. In fact, we aren’t far from seeing the word ‘story’ being used as if it were actually a euphemism for a ‘lie’.
I help people re-frame their narratives every day in my job. All stories are not fairy tales. Not all stories are fictional accounts. The word ‘story’ is somewhat in disrepute.
I think we need to put that right.
Alexander
Oh! And then, when I’ve come to my truth (and it may be that I have issues because I come from a dysfunctional family), then I ask myself how that belief serves me, even if it appears on the surface to be a negative belief. Clearly I must be getting something out of it, otherwise I wouldn’t be investing energy into the thought pattern.
So, would that belief allow me to absolve myself of some responsibility for my issues, perhaps? Or would it allow me to forgive myself for responding the way I do to things, because I did the best I could at the time? Do I still need that belief? Yes? Ok. Work with it, but with awareness. Act rather than react. No? Ok, discard. Not my truth anymore.
I tend to agree that CBT, whilst useful in some contexts, is over-prescribed and at times totally inappropriate, which results in the therapy being (at best) useless and at worst, harmful.
I think that truth is a wildly subjective thing and changes constantly within an individual; furthermore, I do not think we can use the word ‘truth’ or the question ‘is that true’ when looking at judgements we make about others. For one, our judgement is based on how we personally feel about a person’s actions, and therefore any ‘truth’ about another is as a result of a wild leap into trying to fathom out someone else’s motives, which we cannot do.
I think asking someone with severe self-esteem issues to examine whether a story is true or not, be it about themselves or someone else, is a bit like asking them to chase their tail blindfolded, while standing on one leg and directing air traffic at JFK. That’s not to say I think that the original questioner has severe self-esteem issues, by the way…
What I found to be a far more useful series of questions (for me) were about relative truth, i.e. is a belief I have MY truth, or someone else’s? Who told me I must have issues because I have a dysfunctional family? Do I believe them? Then I go about discarding all the thought patterns and dogma that aren’t mine, and then I have my truth. And I also recognise that my truth may change in 30 seconds. Or ten years. 🙂
Alexander,
:::respectful curiosity voice::::
Can you help me understand what your point is? Are you are saying that Dr. Jan’s advice about using Katie’s system is “pop psychology” or am I misunderstanding you?
I see Katie’s system as a useful tool for getting people to see their own programming and perceptions but taken to extremes (as with anything taken to extremes) it can be misinterpreted as “it is your problem” which to a victim of abuse is just more blaming them for their own abuse. Is that what you are saying here or am I misunderstanding you? Thanks in advance for any clarification you offer.
Always…always enjoy the ride as I read your lyrical prose Alexander…..
I am however both for and against!
“experience and formal logic are atrocious bedfellows”
It’s all we’ve got…… there are millions of notes harmonic and discordant in a piece of music….the tension and the resolution are the experience and the logic!
One is in-bound…sense datum…and one out…the expression of one’s logic!
Finding a way to hear and sentiently respond to Ravels Bolero …..or Guns and Roses……while the burglars are in your garage stealing your car …is not easy! N’est Pas? It is the juxtaposition of experiences, therapies, philosophies, or even foodstuffs that is either appropriate….or simply misguided!
I would however caution against using terms like masses…with its archetypal implications.
It is my experience that even the most uninformed recipient of watered down pop culture….can….with the right prescription of sense datum and holistic nurture ….grasp the essence of cognitive models and behavioural strategies!!
Ie. your style and stance infers that you have elected to deconstruct others as a means of searching for truth! Thus putting your own efforts beyond the reach and comprehension of “the masses”
There is always room for enlightened trial and error…….it is part of the growth cycle!
Belief Systems become obsolete….the inner faith (voice) being that which one listens to in order to facilitate the creation of that new story! I wholeheartedly agree that Astrology then enhances this creative act!
“We need to re-shape our stories in order to move beyond our entrapments. The brain finds this metaphorically-driven reality-frame hospitable. The truth/falsehood dichotomy provides very limited scope for progress. It has its limited value, but not when it steals our narrative and holds it at gun point shouting “Fess up! Fess up! Are you for us or against us?”
New stories are not born that way.. unless they are versions of the old ones..
Now THAT’S true..”
I love the humour!!
If one is truly existential nothing ever is actually true….or false….
The road takes me from No Thing to Is ness
I appreciate the way that you get there!
Thanks….
Paul Hill
In Katie’s system, the way to look at any issue or suffering we experience is to see it as a story that we tell ourselves, that we think we somehow need in order to live. Unless we question our story, we will use the same narratives over and over again, suffering needlessly and indefinitely, like living in eternal hell.
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In my view this topic is a minefield – especially as we see it here applied to a situated life. Although I’ve only had limited exposure to this ‘model’ there are considerable difficulties with it. Like most psychological approaches to therapy (there are of course many others) the mind tends to get atomized! Moreover, there is a glaring reductionist oversimplification, reminiscent of all psychologically-inspired models that regularly become pop-psychology by necessity of making complex themes readily accessible (as fads) to the masses. While self-help is laudable, more democratic and often the only option available to many with complex needs who are not healed (more like made worse) by the coterie of ‘professional’ services out there – there is still a huge problem of oversimplification being dangerous and then being packaged as credible self-help.
With Katie there appears to be a basic CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) model of challenge implicit that has been clumsily welded onto the concept of narrative/story. There is a great deal of literature out there on this theme of Narrative and it is a HUGE subject matter in its own right – stories aren’t just personal stories either – in fact even stories have their own stories – let’s think of typologies and archetypes as potentials; as opportunities to understand, to shape and to be shaped by unfolding (otherwise they are dead and useful only for incarceration of humans) story lines.
Traditional psychology is happy as a sow in mud talking about whether a belief is irreducibly true or not – but that whole approach is a snare (with the limited value derived NOT in the underlying philosophy expressed, but in the encouraging of the client to question their frame of reference) and the philosophy becomes internalized.
The ‘trueness’ of beliefs is a ridiculous concept – borderline insane. The reason? The level of proof required is unattainable, no scientifically verifiable method could be mooted to secure truth guarantees (especially when it comes to the mysteries of human behavior and motivations) – even to begin asking the question is harmful.
In fact, once we begin to probe a meaningful interface between cognitive propositional truth and story/narrative, we should actually find a degree of liberation (where, instead, we find the CBT modality has hijacked the potential of the narrative approach and subsumed it into itself). Why should we find liberation? Because we get to see clearly (or should) that story is neither true nor false – it just IS. More than this, narrative/story assists us in retrieving the kernel of value in the true/false dichotomy (that has become toxic in so many ways).
Think of the abused (former) child, now adolescent, who has come to believe that care-givers are abusers. Of course, if a significant enough weight of experience informs that belief then it CANNOT be false even though it may not be true in a given situation – but it is certainly not some logical or cognitive propositional assertion made by the adolescent. If the clause ‘all care-givers’ were substituted then one could claim that the adolescent had made a false inference from experience to logic. But would you? Really?
Epistemologically, experience and formal logic are atrocious bedfellows and so why would we treat experiential material as if it were an exercise in logic? Often, the experientially-driven conclusion is more accurate a descriptor of human nature and potentiality in a situation than some technicality of ‘truth’. We can sorely oppress folk when we shift our approaches from experience to logic – which can have value if it leads to healthy, focused questioning rather than more self-blame. CBT is very poorly suited to abuse victims, precisely because of what I have described and the physiological nature of trauma.
Story is so much richer than to allow its reduction to some slave of CBT modalities.
Actually, this is where Astrology can provide much needed frames of reference. It offers a Cosmic Arc to the story line – one that is able to intersect with the mundane and interior aspects of experience. It has the potential to take us OUT of ourselves and our navel-gazing and to connect our ‘disconnected’ narrative to other narratives. It helps us to look in a metaphorical mirror by which we learn not how the other is different to me (with all the angst that procures) but how they are *like* me (with all the compassionate energy that releases).
We need to re-shape our stories in order to move beyond our entrapments. The brain finds this metaphorically-driven reality-frame hospitable. The truth/falsehood dichotomy provides very limited scope for progress. It has its limited value, but not when it steals our narrative and holds it at gun point shouting “Fess up! Fess up! Are you for us or against us?”
New stories are not born that way.. unless they are versions of the old ones..
Now THAT’S true..
Susun Weed’s menopause book – some ideas towards self esteem acceptance etc, easy tinctures etc to make, loads of ideas about everything – not just for menopausal women either… or even just for women…
(synopsis – nourish everything, and, all symptoms are ‘normal’ – ideas from do nothing through to last resort stands)
love
xxxp
Really, just brilliant Jan and so timely, I supect, for many of us on so many levels. Thanks.
I just can’t thank you enough for this dear Jan. I’m able to apply your wonderful words to a totally different ‘impasse’ that has repeated itself all my adult life and that much of the time I attribute, like anonymous, to coming from a dysfunctional family. Thank you.
Liz xxx